A question for those who have walked the path.
I will explain my situation to you guys. Ever since I was a kid I've loved to be around computers day in and day out. All the way back to the methodus 2.0 days that got me and my family banned from AOL lol…I loved them long before then…But I believe that was the first time I became interested in security.
Anyway I'm a little bit older now and finding a career is something I cant waste anymore time doing. Right now im inbetween jobs. I use to sell cars for a local dealership here in Wichita, but with the way the economy is going right now its not the best time to be a car salesman if your hearts not in it. As you can imagine being inbetween jobs means you have just tons of cash to go out and blow on all these nice new things and equipment. (sarcasim, I hope you understand. :D )
Since money is tight, I wanted to ask you guys how you became what you are today? Did you go to college? Did you go to a trade school? Or did you just go out on your own and take the certifications??? Obviously doing the certifications would be the cheapest route to go although without any training I've heard these tests would probably be failed over and over before completion. Trade school could cost anywhere from $10,000 - $15,000 for nothing but certifications to show for in the end. And College…Well I havn't been to school in so long I've already decided I want a job in the computer industry to reduce stress before I try to go to college. Not to mention im BROKE!!! My true dream would be to own my own pen testing company or something along the lines of security evaluation. Security is my main forte. Perhaps finaly learn Arabic from my Dad and join an agency or something.
Aside from all that, this is where you guys come in. You guys have already been through the process and you all know very well what may or may not of been the easiest route or more effective now that you have gotten where you are today. So please share with me your stories and how you became who you are today. Any advice would help. I just need somewhere to start….on a budget…lol.
Thank you to anyone who reads this.
We haven't walked the path.
Anyway; to answer your main question "How do I learn?".
Internet. Everything you'll need to get knowledge about pentesting and whatnot, it's on the internet. Browse, talk, learn, contribute.
If you're serious about setting up a company you'll need some financial backup. If you're serious about joining an "agency", you'll need a lot more.
Good luck.
spyware wrote: We haven't walked the path.
Anyway; to answer your main question "How do I learn?".
Internet. Everything you'll need to get knowledge about pentesting and whatnot, it's on the internet. Browse, talk, learn, contribute.
If you're serious about setting up a company you'll need some financial backup. If you're serious about joining an "agency", you'll need a lot more.
Good luck.
Thank you for your response, I'm not saying this is a 1 year plan though. Ofcourse I would be a lot older and a lot more experienced by the time I accomplished either one of those goals. I guess what I'm asking is, those of you who are in the computer industry, what were your first steps???
AshraZ wrote: I guess what I'm asking is, those of you who are in the computer industry, what were your first steps??? I started doing a temporary job at a warehouse that packaged computers while I was looking for a better job. When I found the "better job", it was working at a company that did contract-based PC repair for a large computer manufacturer. I started on my Associates in Computer Networking around the same time as I started that job. Finished the Associates degree and moved on to another job (as a Network Admin for a small-ish company, then a larger one). Finished my Bachelors degree in Computer Programming and moved into a job as a PHP developer.
So, to answer your question in short: Go to school and get your foot in the door at whatever entry-level position you can get. Certs are good, but degrees and experience are golden.
AshraZ wrote: …you all know very well what may or may not of been the easiest route or more effective now that you have gotten where you are today. So please share with me your stories and how you became who you are today. Any advice would help.
Well I am on the path, maybe just a bit ahead of you, but not out of sight. Aside from everyone who makes getting into this really simple i.e. 1. get a job 2. get a degree 3. now your done. I think it helps more to put things in perspective. So, read this,
Learn to program in ten years. (I know you want to pen test, but I'm sure your going to have to know how to program a bit.)
http://norvig.com/21-days.html
I just need somewhere to start….on a budget…lol.
Thank you to anyone who reads this.
Read all the e books you can FOR FREE. And I would not make yourself learn something but instead read general stuff and you'll find yourself learning something you enjoy. Start at Wikipedia. Then read one of the books referenced at the bottom.
I am a web developer and am being paid to further a hobby I got when I was in middle school.
So this can lead to a start, I plan on advancing much further in security too, but the first mistake you could probably make is posting this, reading the replies and never coming back to HBH. There is a wealth of information and encouragement that can be found here if your not a moron; so stick around.
P.S. you don't have to go to college.
Uber0n wrote: I'm studying to become a civil enginner in Computer Science at the Chalmers University of Technology.
Since I live in Sweden, going to university doesn't cost anything - in fact the state pays every student about $400 per month just for studying ;)
How legit is that degree? This is not a flame…
I mean my sis loves Germany and wanted to get her Doctor training all done while living there, but it doesn't mean she would be employable in the states…
whitecell wrote: How legit is that degree? This is not a flame…
I mean my sis loves Germany and wanted to get her Doctor training all done while living there, but it doesn't mean she would be employable in the states…
You're a freaking idiot. That -is- a flame.
The fact that not he but his government is paying for his education only means that his country is more successful than the country you are living in. Of course the "States" are employing people from other countries, why do you think you can buy a twenty-pack of noodles for just 8 cents? That's Chinese import and Mexican register man making sure you visit your precious walmarts.
You know what's legit in the states? Corruption, greed, guns and law-driven poverty.
spyware wrote: [quote]whitecell wrote: How legit is that degree? This is not a flame…
I mean my sis loves Germany and wanted to get her Doctor training all done while living there, but it doesn't mean she would be employable in the states…
You're a freaking idiot. That -is- a flame. [/quote]
Well you interpreted it as a flame, even after I stated it was not my intention to flame this person. It was not intended to be offensive and I showed an example where accreditation is not as universal. It was in no way idiotic to show my curiosity.
The fact that not he but his government is paying for his education only means that his country is more successful than the country you are living in.
umm not true, I live in the US, the most successful country in the world. :D Paying for their citizens to go to college only proves that the country's leaders have different ideas of responsibility for their citizens to gain an education.
Of course the "States" are employing people from other countries, why do you think you can buy a twenty-pack of noodles for just 8 cents? That's Chinese import and Mexican register man making sure you visit your precious walmarts.
I do not eat twenty packs of noodles nor do I support Walmart. Importing noodles and allowing immigrants to work in Walmart has nothing to do with high level accreditation of very technical trades. You can buy noodles in any country, and most likely be a checker in every country, but you cannot be a doctor in every country by simply being 'you'. It takes a degree and a specific one from a legitimate accredited learning institution. I WAS NOT flaming the country he was from you moron.
If he can get paid to earn a degree and it is universally accepted I would be more than eager to freaking move their and gain citizenship. :evil:
You know what's legit in the states? Corruption, greed, guns and law-driven poverty.
This is not true at all. Are you from the states? If you were you would know that the terrible people get all the press and attention from the media. The average person in the United States does not fit into your emotional response. There are a lot of good qualities that people in the US have and people like you love to over look them in order to justify your own lifestyle over an entire nation you don't fully understand. :p
whitecell wrote: Well you interpreted it as a flame, even after I stated it was not my intention to flame this person. It was not intended to be offensive and I showed an example where accreditation is not as universal. It was in no way idiotic to show my curiosity. :angry:
When I said "That is a flame" I meant me, not you. I could've made that clearer, I apologize. I'm sure your post wasn't meant as a flame, it was, however, idiotic.
umm not true, I live in the US, the most successful country in the world. :D 'scuse me. Dying from laughter over here. Anyway, lets continue.
Paying for their citizens to go to college only proves that the country's leaders have different ideas for responsibility for their citizens to gain an education.
Yeah. Sweden, fuck you. Trading wars for economical balance? Guns for schools? HOW COULD YOU!
I do not eat twenty packs of noodles nor do I support Walmart. Importing noodles and allowing immigrants to work in Walmart has nothing to do with high level accreditation of very technical trades. You can buy noodles in any country, and most likely be a checker in every country, but you cannot be a doctor in every country by simply being 'you'. It takes a degree and a specific one from a legitimate accredited learning institution. I WAS NOT flaming the country he was from you moron.
Well well well… Accredited institutions? Do you mean American brainwashing schools?
Listen, ass, America is just a tiny shard in what we call "world". American doctors, for example, are just as 'real' as German doctors. Understand me now?
This is not true at all. Are you from the states? If you were you would know that the terrible people get all the press and attention from the media. The average person in the United States does not fit into your emotional response. There are a lot of good qualities that people in the US have and people like you love to over look them in order to justify your own lifestyle over an entire nation you don't fully understand. :p
You're right about one thing; I don't fully understand your nation. Hey, you were the guys electing Bush for president, remember? You are the ones waging wars and whatnot. What's that I hear, peacekeaping? Yeah, right. Peace. That's what I've been seeing on the news lately.
spyware wrote: Yeah. Sweden, fuck you. Trading wars for economical balance? Guns for schools? HOW COULD YOU!
Oh woe is us, why did you reveal our great shame to the world? We pale in comparison to the greatest country in the world so why doth you drag our misbehaviour out into the spotlight? Higher education and knowledge doth befall only upon those who prove their worth with money as currency and not work and diligence, those are the words of our mother nature whom wisely decided this at the beginning of time.
spyware wrote: …, it was, however, idiotic.
It was not idiotic it was a very reasonable question, I merely put 'this is not a flame' because it is hard to express inquisitiveness on a forum. You are not supporting any points you are making and are wrong on many things, such as:
'scuse me. Dying from laughter over here. Anyway, lets continue.
- I do not know how you measure success, but in the real world it is not measured by your emotional ethical success gauge in your pea sized brain.
Yeah. Sweden, fuck you. Trading wars for economical balance? Guns for schools? HOW COULD YOU!
- What does this even mean? (rhetorical question) - and I like how before you edited it you put Norway… You can not take a couple cities out of a country that is almost as big as all of Europe and generalize all over every state. For example where I grew up we did not need guns in schools, and NOBODY voted for any war. Many Americans wanted our leaders prosecuted for war crimes. Generalizing is a huge sign of ignorance and ignorance is with a complete lack of knowledge. Or the lack of your support or any sort of valid knowledge you have read.
Well well well… Accredited institutions? Do you mean American brainwashing schools?
- Massachusetts Institute of Technology?? California Institute of Technology?? These are brainwashing? I know you would like to think Princeton, Yale, or Harvard are brainwashing but then again you look like a conspiracy theorist nut bag. I know many of your kind and researched a lot of the same conspiracy topics probably. Interesting ideas, but none of those claims can be called fact, because amazing people have graduated from these places.
Listen, ass, America is just a tiny shard in what we call "world". American doctors, for example, are just as 'real' as German doctors. Understand me now?
You're right about one thing; I don't fully understand your nation. Hey, you were the guys electing Bush for president, remember? You are the ones waging wars and whatnot. What's that I hear, peacekeaping? Yeah, right. Peace. That's what I've been seeing on the news lately.
Again the US is almost the size of all of Europe and contains about 13 % of the worlds population. And sure German doctors and US doctors are both called doctors but German doctors have to pass Doctor tests again if they want to work in the US; it is merely a fact not ethical discussion. And again you decide to look in on the negative facts without really finding good support or even attempting to be unbias. zomg!! The united states has done something good?!
Bush Has Quietly Tripled Aid to Africa
"The president has tripled direct humanitarian and development aid to the world's most impoverished continent since taking office and recently vowed to double that increased amount by 2010 – to nearly $9 billion."
- the W.P.
Why the hell are you such a hater? If they can offer an education that is accepted universally I would move there that is awesome! That is all I wanted to know, but you have turned this into an ethical shit storm. :o
Okay. You got me. I'm an angry conspiracy nut-job which only goal in life is to hate and bash America on forums like these.
I already told you; I generalized. I exaggerated. I took something what is real, multiplied it by ten and used it like it was a valid argument. Multiplied. I didn't create anything that wasn't there, I just multiplied it.
Be that as it may, there are valid concerns to be raised on many of the subjects we discussed.
Now, I owe Uber0n an apology for forgetting in which country he lived in for a sec. Sorry Uber0n, I hope you can forgive me.
spyware wrote: I already told you; I generalized. I exaggerated. I took something what is real, multiplied it by ten and used it like it was a valid argument. Multiplied. I didn't create anything that wasn't there, I just multiplied it.
The fact that not he but his government is paying for his education only means that his country is more successful than the country you are living in…
not true
You know what's legit in the states? Corruption, greed, guns and law-driven poverty
not true
*legitimate:
1 a: lawfully begotten ; specifically : born in wedlock b: having full filial rights and obligations by birth
2: being exactly as purposed : neither spurious nor false
3 a: accordant with law or with established legal forms and requirements b: ruling by or based on the strict principle of hereditary right
4: conforming to recognized principles or accepted rules and standards *
Yeah. Sweden, fuck you. Trading wars for economical balance? Guns for schools? HOW COULD YOU!
not true
Well well well… Accredited institutions? Do you mean American brainwashing schools?
not true
America is just a tiny shard in what we call "world". American doctors, for example, are just as 'real' as German doctors.
not true
You are the ones waging wars and whatnot
not true
I didn't create anything that wasn't there, I just multiplied it.
not true
:o:o:o
Ah, the power of repeating 'not true' and shaking your head. Care to add any informational sources to those statements? Of course; you could be asking the same for mine, since I didn't provide any. Hm. Would this mean your opinions are just as valid as mine? However, you think my opinions aren't valid. So… you think your opinions aren't valid either?
whitecell wrote: umm not true, I live in the US, the most successful country in the world. :D Dude, what US do you live in? … Cuz the one I live in is poor. Really poor.
- $10 trillion poor.
- Add in the unstable and potentially collapsing economy.
- Add in our crappy education system.
No offense, because I actually live in the US, too… but, our country is in suck mode right now. That's why I'm waiting to see how the next 4 years may turn things around.
spyware wrote: The fact that not he but his government is paying for his education only means that his country is more successful than the country you are living in…
whitecell wrote: not true
Then, how exactly does that concept apply to our country, in which scholarships and grants are provided to students that qualify? If other countries are not successful from being able to pay for that education, then how successful are we when we're only paying for a small portion of ours?
spyware wrote: You are the ones waging wars and whatnot
whitecell wrote: not true
That one is true. It just sounds worse when taken out of context. Add in the purpose behind them, and they sound more justified (not counting this current, excessively drawn-out one).
whitecell wrote: [quote]spyware wrote: I already told you; I generalized. I exaggerated. I took something what is real, multiplied it by ten and used it like it was a valid argument. Multiplied. I didn't create anything that wasn't there, I just multiplied it.
The fact that not he but his government is paying for his education only means that his country is more successful than the country you are living in…
not true
[/quote]
Your really going to argue that the US hasn't been the most successful? We influence the entire world based upon our success…
You know what's legit in the states? Corruption, greed, guns and law-driven poverty
not true
PREVIOUS POST: by me
"This is not true at all. Are you from the states? If you were you would know that the terrible people get all the press and attention from the media. The average person in the United States does not fit into your emotional response. There are a lot of good qualities that people in the US have and people like you love to over look them in order to justify your own lifestyle over an entire nation you don't fully understand."
*legitimate:
1 a: lawfully begotten ; specifically : born in wedlock b: having full filial rights and obligations by birth
2: being exactly as purposed : neither spurious nor false
3 a: accordant with law or with established legal forms and requirements b: ruling by or based on the strict principle of hereditary right
4: conforming to recognized principles or accepted rules and standards *
[quote] Yeah. Sweden, fuck you. Trading wars for economical balance? Guns for schools? HOW COULD YOU!
not true
[/quote]
PREVIOUS POST: by me
"For example where I grew up we did not need guns in schools, and NOBODY voted for any war. Many Americans wanted our leaders prosecuted for war crimes."
[quote] Well well well… Accredited institutions? Do you mean American brainwashing schools?
not true
[/quote]
PREVIOUS POST: by me
"Massachusetts Institute of Technology?? California Institute of Technology?? These are brainwashing? I know you would like to think Princeton, Yale, or Harvard are brainwashing but then again you look like a conspiracy theorist nut bag. I know many of your kind and researched a lot of the same conspiracy topics probably. Interesting ideas, but none of those claims can be called fact, because amazing people have graduated from these places."
[quote] America is just a tiny shard in what we call "world". American doctors, for example, are just as 'real' as German doctors.
not true
[/quote]
PREVIOUS POST: by me
"Again the US is almost the size of all of Europe and contains about 13 % of the worlds population. And sure German doctors and US doctors are both called doctors but German doctors have to pass Doctor tests again if they want to work in the US; it is merely a fact not ethical discussion."
[quote] You are the ones waging wars and whatnot
not true
[/quote]
PREVIOUS POST: by me
"NOBODY voted for any war. Many Americans wanted our leaders prosecuted for war crimes."
[quote] I didn't create anything that wasn't there, I just multiplied it.
not true
Look up…:right:
:o:o:o[/quote]
whitecell wote : The united states has done something good?!
Bush Has Quietly Tripled Aid to Africa
"The president has tripled direct humanitarian and development aid to the world's most impoverished continent since taking office and recently vowed to double that increased amount by 2010 – to nearly $9 billion."
- the W.P.
A mere drop in the ocean compared to the military aid given to Israel
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/17/world/middleeast/17israel.html
Zephyr_Pure wrote: [quote]whitecell wrote: umm not true, I live in the US, the most successful country in the world. :D Dude, what US do you live in? … Cuz the one I live in is poor. Really poor.
- $10 trillion poor.
- Add in the unstable and potentially collapsing economy.
- Add in our crappy education system.
[/quote]
The US is in debate right now about our economy, sure I agree we have poverty, but the economy has shown growth (very debatable but the numbers show it, that is why McCain's advisor said we are a nation of whiners…). Sure elements of the economy got fudged b/c of terrible loaning, but the US I live in has a show called 'Survivor' where a game is played to have our citizens survivor in an environment where people actual live in the world. The US I live in finds it common to have running tap water, eat at places where the food is made for them, and regularly attend movies shown on a giant screen. The US is not poor in a worldly sense, we miss living in luxury.
No offense, because I actually live in the US, too… but, our country is in suck mode right now. That's why I'm waiting to see how the next 4 years may turn things around.
I hope OB can return the US to it's beloved state too.
[quote]spyware wrote: The fact that not he but his government is paying for his education only means that his country is more successful than the country you are living in…
whitecell wrote: not true
Then, how exactly does that concept apply to our country, in which scholarships and grants are provided to students that qualify? If other countries are not successful from being able to pay for that education, then how successful are we when we're only paying for a small portion of ours?
[/quote]
I think I agree with Zeph…
[quote]spyware wrote: You are the ones waging wars and whatnot
whitecell wrote: not true
That one is true. It just sounds worse when taken out of context. Add in the purpose behind them, and they sound more justified (not counting this current, excessively drawn-out one).[/quote]
Yeah but I am not going to agree that he can say all of us Americans wage these wars. Though in all actuality it is done under an American flag, I believe we are a nation divided on that. George Bush and his cronies waged that war.
whitecell wrote: The US is in debate right now about our economy, sure I agree we have poverty, but the economy has shown growth (very debatable but the numbers show it, that is why McCain's advisor said we are a nation of whiners…). Sure elements of the economy got fudged b/c of terrible loaning, but the US I live in has a show called 'Survivor' where a game is played to have our citizens survivor in an environment where people actual live in the world. The US I live in finds it common to have running tap water, eat at places where the food is made for them, and regularly attend movies shown on a giant screen. The US is not poor in a worldly sense, we miss living in luxury.
Oh, okay… so, McCain's advisor called us a nation of whiners. Is he the same one that told McCain that Sarah Palin would be a good idea for a running mate? Seriously, "whiners"?
So, I guess AIG (small company, really) was a whiner when it really was going bankrupt. And Wachovia (another small one). Oh, and these companies called J.P. Morgan and Bank of America (which most people probably haven't heard of) merging to stay alive. … Does anyone know who this little company called "General Motors" is? Yeah, they were (and possibly still are) going bankrupt, too.
I guess the biggest whiner of all would have to be Wall Street itself, who threw the "biggest crybaby fit of all" when it SHUT DOWN to prevent the stock market bottoming out… and that wasn't too long ago. So, given all of that fact, McCain's advisor can kiss my ass with his empty skepticism, and you need to check more sources.
About those "luxuries"… those aren't luxuries, guy. Any country that's at least halfway developed has those. There are other developed countries in the world; it's not just a gamut of third-world trashpiles "out there".
I wrote: Then, how exactly does that concept apply to our country, in which scholarships and grants are provided to students that qualify? If other countries are not successful from being able to pay for that education, then how successful are we when we're only paying for a small portion of ours?
whitecell wrote: I think I agree with Zeph…
You can't agree with me… It was a question directed at you.
whitecell wrote: Yeah but I am not going to agree that he can say all of us Americans wage these wars. Though in all actuality it is done under an American flag, I believe we are a nation divided on that. George Bush and his cronies waged that war. The Iraqi War started well before the 2004 election occurred. The voters were given ample time to consider the right decision. They were given the choice between pulling troops out of Iraq or preventing gay marriage. The MAJORITY voted Bush back in based upon the war. Apparently, buttsex > life.
Zephyr_Pure wrote: [quote]whitecell wrote: The US is in debate right now about our economy, sure I agree we have poverty, but the economy has shown growth (very debatable but the numbers show it, that is why McCain's advisor said we are a nation of whiners…). Sure elements of the economy got fudged b/c of terrible loaning, but the US I live in has a show called 'Survivor' where a game is played to have our citizens survivor in an environment where people actual live in the world. The US I live in finds it common to have running tap water, eat at places where the food is made for them, and regularly attend movies shown on a giant screen. The US is not poor in a worldly sense, we miss living in luxury.
Oh, okay… so, McCain's advisor called us a nation of whiners. Is he the same one that told McCain that Sarah Palin would be a good idea for a running mate? Seriously, "whiners"?
So, I guess AIG (small company, really) was a whiner when it really was going bankrupt. And Wachovia (another small one). Oh, and these companies called J.P. Morgan and Bank of America (which most people probably haven't heard of) merging to stay alive. … Does anyone know who this little company called "General Motors" is? Yeah, they were (and possibly still are) going bankrupt, too.
I guess the biggest whiner of all would have to be Wall Street itself, who threw the "biggest crybaby fit of all" when it SHUT DOWN to prevent the stock market bottoming out… and that wasn't too long ago. So, given all of that fact, McCain's advisor can kiss my ass with his empty skepticism, and you need to check more sources.
About those "luxuries"… those aren't luxuries, guy. Any country that's at least halfway developed has those. There are other developed countries in the world; it's not just a gamut of third-world trashpiles "out there". [/quote]
okay you're right I apologize. :( I know our country is not doing very well right now… I really was not agreeing with Graham saying we're a nation of whiners, I was just saying that Americans have been taken advantage of when it came to loaning.
"The collapse in home values as well as the crash of the economy is the result of an insurance fraud scheme being ran by a group of Wall Street insiders and the corrupt politicians that they have in their pockets"
Because our housing market caused the banks to crash Hopefully Obama does return it to a beloved state.
And those luxuries in other countries are nothing compared what Americans make it…
[quote]I wrote: Then, how exactly does that concept apply to our country, in which scholarships and grants are provided to students that qualify? If other countries are not successful from being able to pay for that education, then how successful are we when we're only paying for a small portion of ours?
whitecell wrote: I think I agree with Zeph…
You can't agree with me… It was a question directed at you.
[/quote]
That's why I said I think, I really didn't get what you're asking…
If I think I get it, then why would that make our country less successful. If we're looking in as many possible ways, then when a countries citizens can pay, or acquire a loan to pay, or still get government grants to pay for their own college, and then obtain a job in the states that can later pay for such high expenses raise a family and live comfortably then how is our country less successful? Another question could be, could the Swedes pay for college if it cost as much as it does in the states. I simply do not know, but there are a lot of questions you could ask about how each economy works and their goals. I get the drift now, but I think the thing I know the least is economics, and am not going to argue what makes a country successful. Enlighten me…
[quote]whitecell wrote: Yeah but I am not going to agree that he can say all of us Americans wage these wars. Though in all actuality it is done under an American flag, I believe we are a nation divided on that. George Bush and his cronies waged that war. The Iraqi War started well before the 2004 election occurred. The voters were given ample time to consider the right decision. They were given the choice between pulling troops out of Iraq or preventing gay marriage. The MAJORITY voted Bush back in based upon the war. Apparently, buttsex > life.[/quote]
I don't know how I could really believe that…9/11 sparked the war in Afghanistan, and moved to Iraq. Americans did not want a search for Osama and deletion of Al Qaeda to turn into this.
"In a January 2003 CBS poll 64% of U.S. nationals had approved of military action against Iraq, however 63% wanted President Bush to find a diplomatic solution rather than going to war, and 62% believed the threat of terrorism would increase in the event of war."
- CBS.com
I think many felt very manipulated and lied to by pres Bush about WoMD's. That's why Obama poned McCain, when even there was a little allusion to him being similar to Bush…The point I really wanted to get across was that the American people were poorly represented by Bush and Cheney, and we are not as war mongering as spyware was saying.
whitecell wrote: And those luxuries in other countries are nothing compared what Americans make it…
Yeah… in some of the other countries, they're actually better. :whoa:
whitecell wrote: If I think I get it, then why would that make our country less successful. If we're looking in as many possible ways, then when a countries citizens can pay, or acquire a loan to pay, or still get government grants to pay for their own college, and then obtain a job in the states that can later pay for such high expenses raise a family and live comfortably then how is our country less successful? Another question could be, could the Swedes pay for college if it cost as much as it does in the states. I simply do not know, but there are a lot of questions you could ask about how each economy works and their goals. I get the drift now, but I think the thing I know the least is economics, and am not going to argue what makes a country successful. Enlighten me…
The fact that a country pays for its citizens' education does not automatically imply that the citizens are unable to… any more than saying that a person receiving scholarships cannot pay theirs. One does not infer the other. Thus, speculation about whether Swedes could pay for college if it was more expensive is irrelevant, because you have no basis for suggesting that they can't pay for it now.
We could ask a bunch of questions about how each economy works, but that's not the goal here. The goal is to realize that, at the base of this all… the US is a developed country, just like many other developed countries (including Sweden and many, MANY others).
whitecell wrote: "In a January 2003 CBS poll 64% of U.S. nationals had approved of military action against Iraq, however 63% wanted President Bush to find a diplomatic solution rather than going to war, and 62% believed the threat of terrorism would increase in the event of war."
- CBS.com
Did you read that when you quoted it? Read it again, then tell me which part disproved what I said.
whitecell wrote: The point I really wanted to get across was that the American people were poorly represented by Bush and Cheney, and we are not as war mongering as spyware was saying. … and the point I was getting across is that the majority of our citizens' votes went towards that pair of "representatives" when given the option to right the wrong in 2004. So, Bush and Cheney poorly represented the few that did not vote for them; the rest were accurately represented, and they made up the majority of the voters.
We are not all war-mongering, no… Our country has tended to be in recent years, though. I believe that was the point he was getting across.
Zephyr_Pure wrote: Yeah… in some of the other countries, they're actually better. :whoa:
okay you're right, in some places there are better luxuries, but the US consumes a hell of a lot more to have a luxurious life.
The US consumes in a year,
7.2 trillion gallons 1,352,080,623,840 (kWH) kilowatt hours (based on 2006 statistics)
and overall
In the United States:
Reducing consumption without reducing use is a costly delusion. If undeveloped countries consumed at the same rate as the US, four complete planets the size of the Earth would be required. People who think that they have a right to such a life are quite mistaken.
Americans constitute 5% of the world's population but consume 24% of the world's energy. On average, one American consumes as much energy as 2 Japanese 6 Mexicans 13 Chinese 31 Indians 128 Bangladeshis 307 Tanzanians 370 Ethiopians
This was just a snapshot
http://www.mindfully.org/Sustainability/Americans-Consume-24percent.htm
The fact that a country pays for its citizens' education does not automatically imply that the citizens are unable to…
I didn't mean to imply that, and I apoligize if I offended any swedes. I was just adding that as a hypothetical that you could keep asking questions and not really determine anything from it. That's why I added 'I don't know', but that was terrible judgement on my part to raise that question. Again sorry Uber if that was offensive.
any more than saying that a person receiving scholarships cannot pay theirs. One does not infer the other. Thus, speculation about whether Swedes could pay for college if it was more expensive is irrelevant, because you have no basis for suggesting that they can't pay for it now.
okay I was wrong, point taken.
We could ask a bunch of questions about how each economy works, but that's not the goal here. The goal is to realize that, at the base of this all… the US is a developed country, just like many other developed countries (including Sweden and many, MANY others).
okay there are many developed countries. :|
[quote]whitecell wrote: "In a January 2003 CBS poll 64% of U.S. nationals had approved of military action against Iraq, however 63% wanted President Bush to find a diplomatic solution rather than going to war, and 62% believed the threat of terrorism would increase in the event of war."
- CBS.com
Did you read that when you quoted it? Read it again, then tell me which part disproved what I said. [/quote]
I was trying to show that there was a large majority that did not want to go into Iraq in the first place thus not needing to have to then withdraw troops. So I was thinking that there were many that thought buttsex < life.
… and the point I was getting across is that the majority of our citizens' votes went towards that pair of "representatives" when given the option to right the wrong in 2004. So, Bush and Cheney poorly represented the few that did not vote for them; the rest were accurately represented, and they made up the majority of the voters.
okay I agree that a smaller majority at that time of voting were poorly misrepresented, but now a larger majority feel that at that time of voting they were lied to and manipulated (shows in the approval rating of Bush). So the smaller majority that did not vote for the two thus becomes larger today as many would say they were being misrepresented during the 2004 voting when they were in a state of manipulation.
Also not everyone speaks out during elections which is a terrible mistake. I think the huge difference in majority in the recent election is proof that the American people were fed up with being misrepresented.
We are not all war-mongering, no… Our country has tended to be in recent years, though. I believe that was the point he was getting across.
So we are or we are not? And the point I was getting across was that he could not simply generalize all of the rest of us into a group of warmongers.
spyware wrote: Whitecell; your comments are obnoxiously discriminating towards virtually every country on the planet other than the United States. That's just… rude.
No I have not been, I have been patriotic for America, but not biased, as I criticized America too. I said one questionable thing that I apologized for. I have tried hard to give support for my reasoning and not just spew out statements that I think are "truths" like you…