Police Hacking Home Networks
I just got done reading the latest news posting(about police in britain hacking home pc's) and i'm quite pissed. I just thought I would open a thread so everyone can post their ideas about securing your computer and network.
I think using an operating system other than windows is a good and obvious start.
nights_shadow wrote: Use a firewall and anti-virus. That's really it, the police aren't going to have the sources to hire some kind of security team. They will probably use some kind of special program for the police. However, if the police do get some kind of security team, I guarantee there will be a backlash.
ever heard of the hightech crime unit? =/
mambo wrote: [quote]nights_shadow wrote: Use a firewall and anti-virus. That's really it, the police aren't going to have the sources to hire some kind of security team. They will probably use some kind of special program for the police. However, if the police do get some kind of security team, I guarantee there will be a backlash.
ever heard of the hightech crime unit? =/[/quote]
Again, I say police, not joint efforts that police can prosper from: "Law enforcement agencies which are involved with the High Tech Crime Unit include the FBI, IRS Criminal Investigations Division, U.S. Customs Service, U.S. Secret Service, U.S. Attorney's Office, Texas Attorney General's Office Internet Bureau, Texas Department of Public Safety and the Travis County District Attorney's Office. The Austin Metro High Tech Foundation, an organization sponsored by several local high tech companies"
mambo wrote: apologies, didnt understand what you meant.
HTCU is now part of the serious organised crime unit, so to be honest you would have to have done something pretty big for them to 'hack your computer'
No no, you brought up a good example of what is out there right now. I do agree that you'd have to be a bit of a serious threat to be looked at by these guys. At that point, you better have your own security person. :p
game_freak wrote: isent that elegal in the us to invade our privicy? jw…. idk about there nights_shadow wrote: Think that would stop them?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act
Your loss of privacy is only a tiny law away.
Zephyr_Pure wrote: [quote]game_freak wrote: isent that elegal in the us to invade our privicy? jw…. idk about there nights_shadow wrote: Think that would stop them?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act
Your loss of privacy is only a tiny law away.[/quote]
Think it'll turn into another wiretapping story? Hey, pass this law. Oh, by the way, we were illegally wiretapping these people. Sorry, patriot act gives us immunity because we were doing it for the good of the nation. HAHA, suckers.
To leave people's internet privacy/To invade it, in a state, is very dangerous. The conflict existed, and had developed since the flaw of the information and communication online.
I think, something should be done about this, as a solution– Every individual should have a right to an acceptable degree of privacy, so a line should be drawn somewhere. But, I don't know how far, those individuals will accept this.
nights_shadow wrote: Think it'll turn into another wiretapping story? Hey, pass this law. Oh, by the way, we were illegally wiretapping these people. Sorry, patriot act gives us immunity because we were doing it for the good of the nation. HAHA, suckers. Oh, passing the law to condone what they're already doing to some degree? Yeah, wouldn't surprise me.
god_peet wrote: To leave people's internet privacy/To invade it, in a state, is very dangerous. The conflict existed, and had developed since the flaw of the information and communication online.
Did you just… argue with yourself? :whoa: I think the word you were looking for, instead of "conflict", was "contradiction".
god_peet wrote: I think, something should be done about this, as a solution– Every individual should have a right to an acceptable degree of privacy, so a line should be drawn somewhere. But, I don't know how far, those individuals will accept this. A loss of privacy is a loss of privacy. What's acceptable to some may not be to others. I can agree, though, that the initial mention of invasion of privacy in this thread, as well as the Patriot Act, are both highly undesirable. Couple this with the media's interpretation of hackers and hacking in general, and this could very well turn into a "witch-hunt" of sorts.
If I remember correctly, the Patriot Act or something similar in the U.S. related hacking to breaking and entering. So technically, the FBI, Homeland Security, what have you, would need a search warrant to actually hack into your home computer, under the Bill of Rights, and your protection from unwarranted search and seizure. I'm not sure if the U.K. has any warrant laws or not, or if they relate hacking to breaking and entering. If so, that would be a nice technicality to use in a court case.
Who cares? Cops are people too, who's to say they can't hack? If this was some civilian going around hacking, you wouldn't bitch about it. You'd just make sure your network was secure and go on about your business.
If your problem is the hypocrisy of it then you're S.O.L. because hypocrisy is a part of life and you'll never escape it. In fact, as hackers, we shouldn't be telling anyone they can't hack, even cops. If you're getting hacked then it's partially your fault for not securing your shit properly. :P
Also, and this may be a false assumption, but I'm sensing some hostility toward the government and/or the police force. If this is because you or someone you know has been prosecuted for a crime, then you shouldn't have any negative feelings towards them because it's your fault for not being careful enough and getting caught (unless they framed you :angry:).
But maybe I'm just crazy… :P
Skunkfoot wrote: Who cares? Cops are people too, who's to say they can't hack? If this was some civilian going around hacking, you wouldn't bitch about it. You'd just make sure your network was secure and go on about your business.
If your problem is the hypocrisy of it then you're S.O.L. because hypocrisy is a part of life and you'll never escape it. In fact, as hackers, we shouldn't be telling anyone they can't hack, even cops. If you're getting hacked then it's partially your fault for not securing your shit properly. :P
Also, and this may be a false assumption, but I'm sensing some hostility toward the government and/or the police force. If this is because you or someone you know has been prosecuted for a crime, then you shouldn't have any negative feelings towards them because it's your fault for not being careful enough and getting caught (unless they framed you :angry:).
But maybe I'm just crazy… :P
skunkfoot FTW!
I've never been arrested or come even close to it. I just hate the system that the governments of today run on. Propaganda, control of the media, economic control, and suppression are the names of the game. I guess you are right though, that if you are hacked by the police, it would be your own fault ;)
Skunkfoot wrote: Also, and this may be a false assumption, but I'm sensing some hostility toward the government and/or the police force. If this is because you or someone you know has been prosecuted for a crime, then you shouldn't have any negative feelings towards them because it's your fault for not being careful enough and getting caught (unless they framed you :angry:).
The current system of law enforcement in the united states is a bunch of shit and I am currently working with certain people under part of a certain administration to help provide a new guideline for reforming inmates and helping citizens with the police. The police should not be able to walk all over your civil rights and use terrorist tactics in doing so. And it's not that they catch you that make most people mad, it's that most of them are incredible douchbags about it.
As for the united kingdom and moshbat's post, I doubt that the police has the ability to bypass typical anti-virus and firewall software (as the intention of post before thread got hijacked by our political and moral points of view :p). Issuing forensics like looking at isp logs, recovering files, and etc. on the defensive, I most certainly agree. However, on the offensive action, I doubt it very much. However, it's entirely possible I'm wrong. Just give me a PoC. ;)
nights_shadow wrote: [quote]mambo wrote: [quote]nights_shadow wrote: Use a firewall and anti-virus. That's really it, the police aren't going to have the sources to hire some kind of security team. They will probably use some kind of special program for the police. However, if the police do get some kind of security team, I guarantee there will be a backlash.
ever heard of the hightech crime unit? =/[/quote]
Again, I say police, not joint efforts that police can prosper from: "Law enforcement agencies which are involved with the High Tech Crime Unit include the FBI, IRS Criminal Investigations Division, U.S. Customs Service, U.S. Secret Service, U.S. Attorney's Office, Texas Attorney General's Office Internet Bureau, Texas Department of Public Safety and the Travis County District Attorney's Office. The Austin Metro High Tech Foundation, an organization sponsored by several local high tech companies"[/quote]
You brits won't need to worry about the FBI, SS, and all that other US rot… Britain doesn't like America :P
Skunkfoot wrote: Maybe it's just me, but isn't it sort of wrong to try to prevent cops from hacking? I mean, anyone should be able to hack, regardless of what job they have (if any).
**If you're concerned about the cops hacking your shit, then just make sure it's secure and don't worry about it. **
No, absolutely not. Also, for the bold part, this was the original point of this topic.
Edit: Let me elaborate a little bit on "No, absolutely not."
A cop, as a person, can hack as long as they follow the same rules the rest of us have to follow. If they are to disobey this rule, they must have it cleared by a court and provide sufficient evidence and proof as to why they want to hack into this computer. Otherwise it's just another case of abusive power.
No…look, a cop is a person. People should be allowed to hack if they want to. You can't expect them to get rid of any of those annoying laws if you sit here and complain that you don't like it when you get hacked.
I don't understand why you think cops need to follow hacking rules considering that hackers don't have a universal set of rules. Hackers follow their personal rules, that's all. Why should cops be any different?
How about this, don't think about them as "cops". You think that and you start to think about authority and power and all of those illusions and you start to tell yourself that cops shouldn't be allowed to hack when the truth is that everyone should be allowed to hack. Make sense?
moshbat wrote: [quote]Skunkfoot wrote: Are you telling me that you think we, as hackers, shouldn't hack into other networks because we don't have permission?
Legally, yes. Either way, I believe that permission should be granted. However, where permission is not granted, there should be some form of punishment.[/quote]
So if it's illegal, you won't do it, and if by some miracle you do in fact do something illegal, you want to be punished for it? You think we should be punished for being curious?
That's fine if you think that, but I don't. ;)
Skunkfoot wrote: [quote]moshbat wrote: [quote]Skunkfoot wrote: Are you telling me that you think we, as hackers, shouldn't hack into other networks because we don't have permission?
Legally, yes. Either way, I believe that permission should be granted. However, where permission is not granted, there should be some form of punishment.[/quote]
So if it's illegal, you won't do it, and if by some miracle you do in fact do something illegal, you want to be punished for it? **You think we should be punished for being curious? **
That's fine if you think that, but I don't. ;)[/quote]
No, that is not what I'm trying to say. Moshbat tried to convey what I wanted to say. If you break into a network it is ILLEGAL! (unless permission is given). To make it legal, without some third party, just because you are a part of law enforcement is giving them way too much power. What we do may be of curiosity but a cops' job is to gain a conviction, not to learn and discover. What you and me may do behind our monitors has nothing to do with this. If we do something illegal, we could get caught and arrested.
I don't know if you think that this will help those who break into computer systems. If you think that, just look at what else cops can do that civilians can't.
To make it legal, without some third party, just because you are a part of law enforcement is giving them way too much power.
As I understood it, they aren't so much making something legal as they are breaking a law that should have never been created in the first place.
I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from here. You're saying that it's wrong that the cops aren't being arrested and prosecuted for doing things that a normal citizen would be arrested and prosecuted for doing?
I can understand that. I don't think we should be prosecuted for any information they might find though. In the U.S.A we have an amendment to protect against unreasonable searches and seizures, I think it's the 4th. It says something like "blah blah you can't search someone's house without a warrant and you can't get a warrant without probable cause. If you do manage to get a warrant, you can only collect evidence if it is listed in the warrant (specifically describing the places to be searched and the objects/people to be seized or something like that)"
However, and I'm pretty sure someone mentioned this early on, but we also have the Patriot Act, which does something in the nature of taking away all of a person's rights if the government has reason to believe that they're a terrorist (or something like that…)
All I was saying is that I don't think anyone should be arrested and prosecuted for doing what the police are doing in this situation. If you want to keep something private, you can always encrypt it or hide it or whatever.
Here in the UK we have a facility know as "RAF Menwith Hill", this base is considered to be American soil , and is run by the NSA , and is therefore exempt from UK law .
This facility is the largest electronic monitoring station anywhere in the world , and is a main part of the ECHELON system .
When it was still considered a big no-no to spy on your own citizens , the UK , US , Australia , Canada and New Zealand , formed a pact that allowed the creation of bases on their own soil to do exactly that , but outsourced the running of them to each other , to bypass the laws of the land .
While it was always deemed illegal for a government to collect that information personally on its own citizens , it was not deemed illegal to act on it , if it was passed to you by a third party .
As Moshbat said before :
Who the fuck thinks privacy still exists? Who the fuck thinks that this doesn't already happen? Who the fuck thinks that what you do on the internet isn't being watched?
You have the Main portion of Project ECHELON around you? No offense but that is almost a good thing. So many things going into that facility they cant keep track of the small stuff like this… But I don't know how small they may think it is. As for me, I have several Project ECHELON facilities near me, more of a worry in my care because they are smaller facilities so they know whats up. Wonder exactly how that works. So much must be filtered… For example… Not this haha. I feel windows is so common that no matter who has it, their being watched. I would never exploit from a windows box. Backtrack on that mater, believe the NSA can agree with me on that one. If you know about interesting about ECHELON though, please share. And I don't mean a link to Wikipedia, I got that covered, just maybe any other interesting facts or conspiracy's.