To All HellBoundHackers
To All HellBoundHackers:
I'd been hoping to post a bunch more of these, but Im guessing thats not gonna happen, so Ill give you one last newspost.
HellBoundHackers has always been a place of hope and inspiration for the thousands of members that come here everyday. People from all around the world come here to get to know others with similar interests. To learn about how computers work, to ask questions and gain knowledge. What makes this a crime?
HellBoundHackers is a community no different to any other.
Recently, it appears that the UK/US government hasnt been liking the idea of free-thinking individuals, namely hackers in this case. It started with them wanting to hand out ASBO equivilents without needing evidence. Now theyve gone as far as wanting to arrest mr cheese and take down hbh.
HOW MUCH LONGER ARE WE GONNA TAKE THIS?
If you care for HBH and Mr Cheese, read on.
Hear me, hellboundhackers, my plea to freedom and justice. For aslong as the internet exists, people have studied how it works with curiosity. No different to scientists or mathematicians, hackers are especially interested in one thing: Computers. What makes this a crime? Whats wrong with wanting to find out? For years, hackers have been able to learn in peace. Unless they abused their knowledge, everyone was fine with them.
Everything is changing. The UK courts can hand out the equivilent of an ASBO to suspected hackers without needing evidence of them breaking the law.
HOW IS THIS JUSTICE?
As it seems like we're about to witness, the SS can just arrest hackers, for no apparent reasons.
And the scariest part is this:
NOBODY IS GOING TO CARE.
The general public is gonna agree with the SS that a hacker like Mr Cheese should be arrested. They believe hackers are bored teenage geeks with nothing better to do than hack other peoples computers.
HOW MUCH MORE ARE WE GONNA TAKE?
Knowledge is not a crime.
SO GET OFF YOUR ARSES AND DO SOMETHING WE ARE HACKERS.
ghost
ghost 17 years ago
Lol.. the thing about free speech in Britain is: TABLOIDS!!! go to the tabloids. its got everything- government picking on poor defenceless computer nerds… a plot to try and put a legal website down.. they'll lap it up…
ghost 17 years ago
We should get a new Mr_cheese and start a new HBH. We should have several sites too, not just one site that will end the hacker community when the NSA takes it down. We should also have several site administrators too not just mr_cheese all by himself, but people he can trust. HBH is a utopia. Well i say, if we do this, we should have several utopias!!!!:ninja::ninja::ninja: long live HBH!!!
ghost 17 years ago
some of you have some useless posts to make, like use the Tabloids.. why don't you think about the gov, if they want to bring you down why don't you bring them down. They (the law) want to brig all hackers down because we have information we can use to get more important information, as in information on the FBI CIA MI5. if any of you read then you would of read that some so called FBI officers have been caught with childporn on their computers and so have quite afew US law officers. if you can get alot of information on them they can't touch you.
Use your brain against them.
Mr_Cheese 17 years ago
erm not sure on your tactics there jaffa, in a fantasy world perhaps. but not in reality.
ghost 17 years ago
Mr. Cheese,
After reading your article, I'm starting to see that you really aren't all that high and mighty in your ehtics. My problems exist in this sentence: "They nobly remove what needs to be removed."
What needs to be removed? Obviously, what needs to be removed is what you see as wrong immoral and evil (racism, kiddie porn and terrorists, to name a few) Now, are these things bad? Sure, and I agree that they are. I whole heartedly agree that they shouldn't be online. But I don't "nobly remove them" Why? Because, my friend, I realise that "ethical" is an aritrary term. I realise that what you think is evil someone else may not. And if we say that anyone can ethically remove anything that they want from the net, this site can ethically be taken down. Rock band's sites can etically be taken down. Sites promoting judism can ehtically be taken down. Hell, even sites promoting homosexuality or safe sex or abstenence – they can all be taken down. Because different people have different views of what is right and what is wrong.
So,let us assume that morals are not arbitrary. Let's say everyone belives that what you think is evil is evil. Great. the world's off good. Now, what if we replaced you with hitler. Oh shit. Bye bye jews. See the problem? We MUST respect other's rights to say what they want as long as it does not infere withthe rights of others. You want a first amendment? You want free speach? then dont be a hypocrite and stand up for these freedoms by not taking them away from others.
Now, I'm not saying that what you did was right or wrong or anything. What I AM saying is that these articles are exactly what cuases the world's problems: I am good! These things are evil! I must nobly remove them! That's the battle cry of every dictater throughout history. Bush to Stalin to Saddam to Napolian to Brutus to Hitler. The terrorists are evil, we must spy on anyone who disagrees with us to find them, because they may be one. The trotskians and capitalists are evil, we must destroy them! The shiat are evil! Gas them! The jews are evil! murder them!
See a pattern? Now, I agree wiht you on what is right and wrong, but too often what starts as a noble cause ends up a bloody mess, sometimes literally. You CANNOT place full trust in your self to decide what is right and wrong, because power corrupts.
I dont know what you did. But if you nobly removed anything, then what the law is protecting is a first amendment.
ghost 17 years ago
note: I've always supported you. And I still do. But understand that all this about injustice…. we, as hackers, are supposed to be deductive, we are scientists. So I wish some of these kids would start acting like it, stop kissing cheeses rear end, and start finding out whats going on, and then supporting cheese because they trust that what he did was right, not because everyone else is or because hes a hacker. I'm an american. do I support bush (who is also an american) – no!
One last parting notw, if you band me, realize that I am a contributing member to this site. and Realize that I was not bashing cheese. Realize that you are banding me because I don't confirm to an exact rigorous dogma – the thing I fled to the underground of hacking to avoid. But I don't think you would.
Mr_Cheese 17 years ago
deathrape - thank you for a articulate repsonce, however. shut the fuck up. how many god dam times do i have to explain ethics to you. god dam it. your one of these people who like to think of themselves as free thinkers, but they think free thinking means saying the opposite to everyone else. fuck sake. look its quite simple. take for isntance a modern day hitler. propaganda like that is illegal on eveyr type of media, so why should he be allowed to spread his ideas over the internet. now you can serioulsy sit there and say "hitler should be alloed on the internet coz internet has freedom of speech". and how the fuck do you know i'll abuse my power? i havnt done one thing in my whole career withou good ethical insentive first. i think you been watching too much CNN and think that any dictator is bad. its very possible to have good healthy dictators. and thats not even to say that my ideas are a dictator way of thinking.
ghost 17 years ago
exactly! Mr. cheese has writen about ethics for a long time now..:D we DONT strike back becuase thats not the right thing to do ….thats the things you can get jailtime for.
ghost 17 years ago
Whoa use the forums for long posts pls, hurt your eyes to read as a comment :P Deathrape, I agree that you should always have an open mind. If you wanna see your kids on a porn website, good for you. You couldnt blame the website and want it taken down, that would be a horrible thing to do, according to what youve said.
ghost 17 years ago
…Or you could take a little responsiblity as a parent and teach your kid why it'd not healthy to watch porn and how it dehumanizes women. You know, teach him… what was that word? Oh yeah! ethics. You should take steps to block access to such sites through your router and work through local and state governments for stricter laws concerning minor's access to pornagraphy. Why? Because after you hack that site, it's going to come back online in at max a few months and you might be in trouble with the law, which would set just a great example for your son.
no, according to what I said doing things because they are "right" is a slipery post. For gods sake, I have no bdoubt that bush actually believes that what he's doing in guantanamo is helping to keep the world safe.. and even that it's necessary. That's sad, but I am almost certain true, because if it isn't he thinks its fun to torture people.
I'm saying that ENFORCING decency is one thing, enforcing morality is another. And inforcing a political viewpoint is just plain wrong. And believe me, the SS is not after cheese for taking down a porn site.
ghost 17 years ago
ah, I read you post wrong. And ues, I'd want to take it down. But then, the cops wouldn't be after me if I did… because that person has just broken a dozen laws and grossly infringed upon my child's rights. And that's where that claus comes in. If they infringe upon other's rights then that should definatly be punished, but doing something unpopular, say being a communist and hack or a racist – and expressing your opinion online… should be completely allowed. And desroying people's rights to speak while posting manifestos about yours all around your site and talking about injustice is hypocritical.
Cheese isn't going to jail for removing something unethical from the internet, because anything grossly unethical is illegal, and no country will prosecute you for removing such things. And by unethical I mean infringing upon other's rights. People can disagree with you. People can be racist bigots. People can be rich snobswho send off our soldiers to die while sitting comfortably in an office. People can be hackers. People can do things that are unpopular, but people CAN NOT infringe upon other's rights.
ghost 17 years ago
ohh, and pursueing the law would be faster than hacking a site, taking down a website is usually something you don't do overnight unless it's a horribly configured/unpathed server or there are known holes in webapplications not plugged up
ghost 17 years ago
And i trust I don't have to speak to the news post. Yes, the ASBOs are unjust. But i don't believe that cheese's actions, from what I've heard of them, were just or ethical.
ghost 17 years ago
Alright end of discussion, I got a headache from those long comments. Take it to the forum if anybody wants to argue deathrapes opinions :happy:
Mr_Cheese 17 years ago
deathrape - im sick of repeating myself. its idiots like you that make this world a shit place to live in. fucktard.
ghost 17 years ago
cheese: you havn't given a single reason that justifies the use of computer hacking to quiet the social or political views of another when those views do not directly limit another's rights.
ghost 17 years ago
I stand behind Mr_Cheese, this is no matter of ethics regarded from a apathetic point of view, law isn't unbendable, it isn't absolute, nor are ethics. They are context sensitive. As for HBH, I haven't ever used it, but I'd hate to see fellow brothers go down, if it is taken offline, I will try to do what is in my power to find a new hosting place.
- Nomenumbra -
ghost 17 years ago
@deathrape, tell me about any site cheese defaced and Ill give ya a good reason for it :P