Starting a new company
Hi :)
this is probably the wrong forum fort this thread, but here I go anyway… :P
I am currently attending college and majoring in Computer Science, and it seems like I am not meant for school. it's just too boring and too slow. So I thought of maybe creating my own company for development of back-end systems. I have been working on some web based projects for a while now, and it feels like some of them are really good.
Now, I must admit that I have 0 experience in the field of Web businesses, so I dont really know where to start. So I was wondering, can you guys maybe give me some advice? What should I think about before starting the company? etc.
also, assuming that I have a good back-end product for management of inventory, employees, etc. How do I come in contact with clients that may be interested in this certain type of applications? is this even a market worth going into?
thanks in advance //Demons Halo
Demons Halo wrote: Hi :)
this is probably the wrong forum fort this thread, but here I go anyway… :P
I am currently attending college and majoring in Computer Science, and it seems like I am not meant for school. it's just too boring and too slow. So I thought of maybe creating my own company for development of back-end systems. I have been working on some web based projects for a while now, and it feels like some of them are really good. Of course school is not fun. If it's not the subject matter that's interesting, you can take a break. It's better than finding out you don't really want to be a whatever. I know the mid terms are pretty hard for whatevers. But college credits don't go anywhere. I took a 2 year break after high school. It gives you time to collect yourself.> Now, I must admit that I have 0 experience in the field of Web businesses, so I dont really know where to start. So I was wondering, can you guys maybe give me some advice? What should I think about before starting the company? etc. So what you're saying is that you will not be working in your field. To get started, you can do free work, free lance work, and internships. You build up a portfolio for this kind of work.
also, assuming that I have a good back-end product for management of inventory, employees, etc. How do I come in contact with clients that may be interested in this certain type of applications? is this even a market worth going into? This isn't the dot com boom anymore. You need money, and you need to have experience.
maug wrote: This isn't the dot com boom anymore. You need money, and you need to have experience.
Acccccctually. "Companies" like Twitter succeed these days, don't they? I'd say we're back in boom-land, 2.0. The new dot com is dot me. Social. Simplicity. Nihilistic logos, AJAXified webpages. Users develop. Etc.
Bloody excrement if you ask me, but it's here.
spyware wrote: [quote]maug wrote: This isn't the dot com boom anymore. You need money, and you need to have experience.
Acccccctually. "Companies" like Twitter succeed these days, don't they? I'd say we're back in boom-land, 2.0. The new dot com is dot me. Social. Simplicity. Nihilistic logos, AJAXified webpages. Users develop. Etc.
Bloody excrement if you ask me, but it's here. [/quote]
ok… so I could very well make the next facebook. But it would take me 5 years, I would have no income until I'm some kind of techie celebrity, and my diet would probably be something like cold potatoes and vitamin pills. But if I wanted work by tomorrow, I'd place my bet on free lance or an internship.
spyware wrote: [quote]maug wrote: This isn't the dot com boom anymore. You need money, and you need to have experience.
Acccccctually. "Companies" like Twitter succeed these days, don't they? I'd say we're back in boom-land, 2.0. The new dot com is dot me. Social. Simplicity. Nihilistic logos, AJAXified webpages. Users develop. Etc.
Bloody excrement if you ask me, but it's here. [/quote]
Even though you are a total douchebag I will have to agree with you…. besides the new APIs for the mobile market that are out there will keep pushing the bubble toward expansion.
maug wrote: ok… so I could very well make the next facebook. But it would take me 5 years, I would have no income until I'm some kind of techie celebrity, and my diet would probably be something like cold potatoes and vitamin pills. But if I wanted work by tomorrow, I'd place my bet on free lance or an internship.
That's why it's often done by a group of people, 2-3 ppl.
but that is actually not my problem. I am not trying to be the next Zuckerberg. I am just trying to get enough information to start my oun self-sustaining company ;P
Demons Halo, If you have no experience at all you will not succeed in this world. You do need to use places like elance and vworker to get yourself known. But you will need to realize that on these freelance type sites you are competing against Chinese and Indian workers who love to bottom out the bids. The world of free lance is down and dirty. I suggest finishing your courses. Some people say that a diploma or degree will get you no where but it will get you further than nothing honestly. Yes this is not the dot com boom any more, however, there are always those innovative sites that take and spread like wildfire. But, the chance of hitting that is one in a million.
If you want some information into some other fields you can start looking into if Computer Science is not up your alley hit me up and I will let you know some other options out there.
AldarHawk wrote: Demons Halo, If you have no experience at all you will not succeed in this world. You do need to use places like elance and vworker to get yourself known. But you will need to realize that on these freelance type sites you are competing against Chinese and Indian workers who love to bottom out the bids. The world of free lance is down and dirty. I suggest finishing your courses. Some people say that a diploma or degree will get you no where but it will get you further than nothing honestly. Yes this is not the dot com boom any more, however, there are always those innovative sites that take and spread like wildfire. But, the chance of hitting that is one in a million.
If you want some information into some other fields you can start looking into if Computer Science is not up your alley hit me up and I will let you know some other options out there.
Thns for the advice :) Well, I am currently majoring in computer science, and I am almost done with all my major courses. The only thing that is left is the MATH. and I hate math… Web development does not require that much math, that's why I believe it would be better in case I dropped off and started working on my web app skills instead.
Freelance sites are great, but you rarely find any job where you can get good money for the time you put in :/
I am not trying to create the next facebook. Having a company with a modest revenue is more than enough for a startup like me :$
cool thanks!
yours31f wrote: Do something that someone else hasen't, and based on the current trend, make it simpler.
well, assuming that I have such a product (which I dont), how do I get in touch with clients that might be willing to buy it?! is there any widly known method for doing that?
Demons Halo wrote: Freelance sites are great, but you rarely find any job where you can get good money for the time you put in :/
This is true when you start off, but after couple of months, when you establish yourself well enough, it starts to be a well profitable venture… And this is the same with starting a company, at the start you will probably have to undercut your prices, go that extra mile to get a good feeback, and make your clients return or even refer other people by doing 'more for less'.
I am not trying to create the next facebook. Having a company with a modest revenue is more than enough for a startup like me :$
Believe it or not, but even the latter is quite a challenge, especially in today economic climate.
[quote]yours31f wrote: Do something that someone else hasen't, and based on the current trend, make it simpler.
well, assuming that I have such a product (which I dont), how do I get in touch with clients that might be willing to buy it?! is there any widly known method for doing that?[/quote]
Well depends what it is, I mean would it be an off the shelf solution, or something customized; or perhaps equitable interest in the product. It all depends… But for any clients, make the most of social networks, send link to all your friends, and then the regular bs, register on forums etc. and be active… Also use people you already know in person, don't be afraid and ask for any opportunity to score a job. The initial part is the hardest, a lot of work and not a awful lot of revenue. You need to take your time, even facebook didn't happen over one day.
cyber-guard wrote: But for any clients, make the most of social networks, send link to all your friends, and then the regular bs, register on forums etc. and be active…
I'd advise you to do the exact opposite. Dwell in mystery, thrive in exclusiveness. Remain unseen but not unheard. Price your product(s) outrageously so your profits will be outrageous as well.
Commercials, advertisements and other pleads directed towards potential customers shall have an effect not quite, but astoundingly near the opposite of what you want to achieve. Instead of trying to become well-known, you (c/sh)ould plunge yourself into the depth that is called "the elite". Cater to few but cater them good.
cyber-guard wrote: This is true when you start off, but after couple of months, when you establish yourself well enough, it starts to be a well profitable venture… And this is the same with starting a company, at the start you will probably have to undercut your prices, go that extra mile to get a good feeback, and make your clients return or even refer other people by doing 'more for less'.
That seems like a reasonable thing to do, but the problem as I see it is finding the clients that are willing to try your solution and give you the needed feedback. :/
Well depends what it is, I mean would it be an off the shelf solution, or something customized; or perhaps equitable interest in the product. It all depends… But for any clients, make the most of social networks, send link to all your friends, and then the regular bs, register on forums etc. and be active… Also use people you already know in person, don't be afraid and ask for any opportunity to score a job. The initial part is the hardest, a lot of work and not a awful lot of revenue. You need to take your time, even facebook didn't happen over one day.
ofc not. I am well aware of the fact that a lot of work is needed. My only concern is that finding clients that are willing to risk using an untested product is way to hard. Besides, there are a lot of open source solutions that costs practically nothing to install. Therefore, every product you offer have to be somewhat customized for every client, which I definitly dont mind. Finding those client is the key though :-P
is there some websites maybe where customized solutions are asked for by companies?
goluhaque wrote: [quote]is there some websites maybe where customized solutions are asked for by companies? The only sites I know that to happen on are freelance sites.[/quote]
That's where selling yourself comes in. People don't seem to understand that free lance is pretty much the same thing as having a company of 1. You still need to be professional, and respect the customers. For small businesses, I think it's all about the return customers. A big part of getting return customers is knowing/selling/explaining what they need, not the most expencive and newist toys.
And freelance is not just about a select few websites. You can network through twitter, facebook, monster, craigslist, linkedin, talk to class mates, post fliers… It's like making music - if you can make noise with it, then it's fair game. I used to have a small printer paper sized poster stapled to my back pack advertising computer/laptop repair. Every time I post on craigs list I get 2-3 jobs, but that's all I need. You need to network, because you won't be able to do everything. For example I can't do tv installations, but people still ask me. I send those people to a class mate who also does free lance work.
Work on your portfolio. If you can't create a couple good sites for yourself, you don't even have a hope of getting a customer. The nice thing about internships is that they will teach you a lot. It is worth the experience to do work for free. Again, you'll have to sell yourself. You're cheep, you love learning, and you love working long hours. That's what you need to sell, not the "I'm a smart, young, misunderstood professional who's going to make the next myspace."
when i left college having failed computing a-level and thus unable to get into uni :happy: i had 2 choices… get a job at a supermarket, or go self employed.
i chose to go freelance in web development. within two months i had a business producing a healthy income!
one thing to note is that in the beginning you will spend around the same amount of time actively looking for work as you will working on jobs. also getting paid is fucking irritating! you'll spend a large amount of time chasing clients to actually pay up! make sure you got everything agreed in writing over email before you start.
i got most of my clients from the UK site gumtree. Also myspace was quite popular back then and a lot of bands needed websites. I also got some clients from a local paper that had a job section.
as mentioned before in this thread, you'll need a good site selling yourself with a very slick portfolio. when i started i bought a couple of cheap domains and setup fake websites and put them on my portfolio :p
problem is over the last couple of years out-sourcing web design/development to india/romania has become extremely common as they are able to work for far cheaper than we can.
you could use this to your advantage. get client, find their needs, write a really good spec, outsource to india (rentacoder etc), wait a few days, tweak the code here and there… charge client 3 times as much as the project cost you. i imagine quite a few people follow this business model.
hope thats helpful!
I forgot something I wanted to add.
Go to Google Maps, and search "web design your-home-town". Look at these guys. These are the local competition. This is what I meant by "You're cheep, you love learning, and you love working long hours." This is the exact opposite of most of the local competition. Without exception, on at least one of those three things. That's your angle.
In the beginning, you'll be charging a flat rate as well. Get used to that too. There will always be times where you're stuck, or have to research, or make a stupid mistake… but if you want a return customer you don't charge them for this stuff. And you keep them in the loop if you do go over the initial estimate. I think You'll find that there is plenty of work where you live. I think you'll learn a bit more by staying local too, like social skills. That's just my opinion though. Like Cheese mentioned, at least you won't have to deal with people who say "I live 2,000 miles away, what are you going to do about it?" when it's time to collect payment.
Hi, in relation to freelance sites: I've done some work on vWorker.com (actually quite a bit). I've done at least a few months worth of work, and I'm in the top 1-2% of workers, by rating. But I'm still earning way below minimum wage. Competing in the international market is difficult if your country has a high cost of living. So you'll probably need another primary source of income if taking the freelance route. (And if you're a U.S. citizen, vWorker will inform the IRS that you're working there.)
I am however building a nice portfolio, which was my intent. My specialty is software development on Unix using C/C++, SDL, OpenGL, maths, etc., stuff that I thought would always be in high demand. There seems to be a lot more work in iPhone apps, Flash games, and other useless garbage. I also believe there's plenty of web development opportunities.
I'd like to hear from anyone who has actually "made it" through any freelance site, and starting earning a real income. Or does everyone (in the West at least) simply use these for experience?
I really appreciate all the advice so far guys :) it's nice to see a helpful thread for once :P
Mr_Cheese wrote: when i left college having failed computing a-level and thus unable to get into uni :happy: i had 2 choices… get a job at a supermarket, or go self employed.
i chose to go freelance in web development. within two months i had a business producing a healthy income!
one thing to note is that in the beginning you will spend around the same amount of time actively looking for work as you will working on jobs. also getting paid is fucking irritating! you'll spend a large amount of time chasing clients to actually pay up! make sure you got everything agreed in writing over email before you start.
Which have been the case so far. I have managed to find a couple of trustable clients that keeps providing me with jobs every now and then, but it is not nearly enough to pay my bills :P
i got most of my clients from the UK site gumtree. Also myspace was quite popular back then and a lot of bands needed websites. I also got some clients from a local paper that had a job section.
as mentioned before in this thread, you'll need a good site selling yourself with a very slick portfolio. when i started i bought a couple of cheap domains and setup fake websites and put them on my portfolio :p
haha nothing beats an innovative cheater. I will definitely give that a shot :P
problem is over the last couple of years out-sourcing web design/development to india/romania has become extremely common as they are able to work for far cheaper than we can.
you could use this to your advantage. get client, find their needs, write a really good spec, outsource to india (rentacoder etc), wait a few days, tweak the code here and there… charge client 3 times as much as the project cost you. i imagine quite a few people follow this business model.
hope thats helpful!
That was VERY helpful, thank you :) and btw, I like the business model you mentioned. Since I am always working alone, having some of the work delegated to india would not be such a bad idea. It would save me a lot of time and effort.
maug wrote: I forgot something I wanted to add.
Go to Google Maps, and search "web design your-home-town". Look at these guys. These are the local competition. This is what I meant by "You're cheep, you love learning, and you love working long hours." This is the exact opposite of most of the local competition. Without exception, on at least one of those three things. That's your angle.
In the beginning, you'll be charging a flat rate as well. Get used to that too. There will always be times where you're stuck, or have to research, or make a stupid mistake… but if you want a return customer you don't charge them for this stuff. And you keep them in the loop if you do go over the initial estimate. I think You'll find that there is plenty of work where you live. I think you'll learn a bit more by staying local too, like social skills. That's just my opinion though. Like Cheese mentioned, at least you won't have to deal with people who say "I live 2,000 miles away, what are you going to do about it?" when it's time to collect payment.
I have nothing against flat rates. As long as it's a fair sum of money for the amount of work that I put in. Also, I always make sure to give the clients a test period where they can try the product and suggest changes in case needed (free of charge ofc).
Thanks for the advice. It sounds certainly a lot more logical than having to chase people across the glob. Yet, something tells me that there are not enough jobs available on a local level. I might be wrong though, I'll have to check that out!
idlecomet wrote: Hi, in relation to freelance sites: I've done some work on vWorker.com (actually quite a bit). I've done at least a few months worth of work, and I'm in the top 1-2% of workers, by rating. But I'm still earning way below minimum wage. Competing in the international market is difficult if your country has a high cost of living. So you'll probably need another primary source of income if taking the freelance route. (And if you're a U.S. citizen, vWorker will inform the IRS that you're working there.)
I am however building a nice portfolio, which was my intent. My specialty is software development on Unix using C/C++, SDL, OpenGL, maths, etc., stuff that I thought would always be in high demand. There seems to be a lot more work in iPhone apps, Flash games, and other useless garbage. I also believe there's plenty of web development opportunities.
I'd like to hear from anyone who has actually "made it" through any freelance site, and starting earning a real income. Or does everyone (in the West at least) simply use these for experience?
That just confirms how much Freelance sucks in the long run. I mean sure, you'll get the experience, but the pay might not cover the bills… That's why I wanted to start a company and maybe concentrate on doing work for well established companies with the ability to pay good money.
From what I've noticed, most people does not know what they want. Therefore, whatever you offer them will get the impressed in case you present it correctly. I am not saying that you should create shitty products and do fancy presentations, but the level of experience that you guys seem to ask for seems a bit high (any thoughts on that? :P)
Well I can empathize with your situation, DH. I love working with computers, but I couldn't stick computer science in college, it was so BORING!
I can only comment on freelance software development. The employers on vWorker that I've worked for, mostly seem to be self-employed businessmen. I've also worked for other freelancers who "outsourced" their jobs to me (which kinda feels like I've been cheated; but those were the best-paying jobs).
One of the problems starting out with freelancing is that it's difficult to predict how long a job will take. And you usually negotiate price beforehand.
As regards experience, the employers I've worked with, many being self-employed programmers, know exactly what they want. They leave a lot of implementation details to the worker, but their specifications are generally clear. Maybe it's different in web development.
[A side note: if anyone from the Revenue Commission is reading this, I was joking about working online, I pay all my taxes, and what are YOU doing on a hacking site during work hours??]
On the way of this freelance chat that is happening I would like to put in a few cents here.
Freelance work CAN pay the bills. The problem is not freelance, it is the sites you look on. vWorker is flooded with people from China, India and Romainia who will do a $50 for $5. That is the problem.
I steer clear of these sites. Rather I work on my own personal website while pounding the pavement when I need to. Yes I do work a full time job and my freelance work is a side note, but it makes me enough money to play with when I need to.
If you are looking to make some money, hit me up on MSN/AIM (I think you are on my list) and we will have a nice conversation, as a conversation normally is better than a bunch of forum posts :)
idlecomet wrote: Well I can empathize with your situation, DH. I love working with computers, but I couldn't stick computer science in college, it was so BORING!
I can only comment on freelance software development. The employers on vWorker that I've worked for, mostly seem to be self-employed businessmen. I've also worked for other freelancers who "outsourced" their jobs to me (which kinda feels like I've been cheated; but those were the best-paying jobs).
One of the problems starting out with freelancing is that it's difficult to predict how long a job will take. And you usually negotiate price beforehand.
As regards experience, the employers I've worked with, many being self-employed programmers, know exactly what they want. They leave a lot of implementation details to the worker, but their specifications are generally clear. Maybe it's different in web development.
[A side note: if anyone from the Revenue Commission is reading this, I was joking about working online, I pay all my taxes, and what are YOU doing on a hacking site during work hours??]
Thanks for your input :) I actually find myself being in that same spot you mentioned quite often. When charging a flat rate, you cannot really estimate how much time a project is going to consume. Therefore, its hard to put a price on your work before you even start.
is there any general rule you guys follow for estimating a price?
AldarHawk wrote: On the way of this freelance chat that is happening I would like to put in a few cents here.
Freelance work CAN pay the bills. The problem is not freelance, it is the sites you look on. vWorker is flooded with people from China, India and Romainia who will do a $50 for $5. That is the problem.
I steer clear of these sites. Rather I work on my own personal website while pounding the pavement when I need to. Yes I do work a full time job and my freelance work is a side note, but it makes me enough money to play with when I need to.
If you are looking to make some money, hit me up on MSN/AIM (I think you are on my list) and we will have a nice conversation, as a conversation normally is better than a bunch of forum posts :)
I have been on vWorker for a couple days now and I can honestly say that I dont find it attractive at all. So I guess that vWorker is off the table for now :/
MoshBat wrote: You could always run around the local businesses and do work for very, very little, or even nothing, on the agreement that they will drop your name to other businesses/contacts.
That might be worth it actually. thnks!
Demons Halo wrote: is there any general rule you guys follow for estimating a price?
i have a fixed daily rate i charge and when i estimate how long a project will take, my general rule is .. (estimated time * 2) - a few days :D projects ALWAYS over run your estimated time.. and if they're happy with the quote you provide, you have plenty of time and don't have to rush! less stressful :)
If you don't plan on hitting up at vWorker, never visit scriptLance. It is way worse.
Another thing that many people overlook is what you write in the comment when you apply for a job on these sites. Throw in words like "hacking" and related shit, like you will make that code unexploitable, and you usually end up getting that job, even if your bid is higher than average. People are very stupid, you should just know how to fool them on such sites.
Mr_Cheese wrote: problem is over the last couple of years out-sourcing web design/development to india/romania has become extremely common as they are able to work for far cheaper than we can.
you could use this to your advantage. get client, find their needs, write a really good spec, outsource to india (rentacoder etc), wait a few days, tweak the code here and there… charge client 3 times as much as the project cost you. i imagine quite a few people follow this business model.
hope thats helpful!
Wow, I just read this and now I keep wondering, how do you sleep at night?
Demons Halo wrote: [quote]spyware wrote: [quote]maug wrote: This isn't the dot com boom anymore. You need money, and you need to have experience.
Acccccctually. "Companies" like Twitter succeed these days, don't they? I'd say we're back in boom-land, 2.0. The new dot com is dot me. Social. Simplicity. Nihilistic logos, AJAXified webpages. Users develop. Etc.
Bloody excrement if you ask me, but it's here. [/quote]
Even though you are a total douchebag I will have to agree with you…. besides the new APIs for the mobile market that are out there will keep pushing the bubble toward expansion.
maug wrote: ok… so I could very well make the next facebook. But it would take me 5 years, I would have no income until I'm some kind of techie celebrity, and my diet would probably be something like cold potatoes and vitamin pills. But if I wanted work by tomorrow, I'd place my bet on free lance or an internship.
That's why it's often done by a group of people, 2-3 ppl.
but that is actually not my problem. I am not trying to be the next Zuckerberg. I am just trying to get enough information to start my oun self-sustaining company ;P[/quote]
Spyware has a level 60 warn, and you're calling him a douchebag!! Dude, you obviously need to stop insulting dangerous people. (I say dangerous with the greatest respect, and yet wonder)
Mr_Cheese wrote: you could use this to your advantage. get client, find their needs, write a really good spec, outsource to india (rentacoder etc), wait a few days, tweak the code here and there… charge client 3 times as much as the project cost you. i imagine quite a few people follow this business model.
I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing. Just watch out you don't get ioncubed shit or whatever. Wouldn't be the first one who gets this, and then you'll have to explain to your client why you can't edit that simple script to fit their needs just a bit more.
Just throwing it out there
t0xikc0mputer wrote: Spyware has a level 60 warn, and you're calling him a douchebag!! Dude, you obviously need to stop insulting dangerous people. (I say dangerous with the greatest respect, and yet wonder) You don't get warned for being dangerous, you get warned for being annoying and causing problems.
ynori7 wrote: [quote]t0xikc0mputer wrote: Spyware has a level 60 warn, and you're calling him a douchebag!! Dude, you obviously need to stop insulting dangerous people. (I say dangerous with the greatest respect, and yet wonder) You don't get warned for being dangerous, you get warned for being annoying and causing problems.[/quote] lol