Regarding the Creeping Death of HBH
Firebolt wrote: We need someone to take responsibility for this site…
Exactly.
The main reason this site is going to shit is because the people responsible for it have lives. They are getting older and have things to get done.
I myself am in college and about to get a job as a TSO, which will consume a lot of my time. Plus I have other hobbies besides hacking like music and martial arts.
We need very intelligent nerdy high school kids with zero lives to run this place.
At least then it will have regular mods and so forth.
I figured we should start a thread to discuss this matter instead of filling the shoutbox.
With younger mods, we risk them doing stupid shit and showing off but we can also get a more active member base. Younger people generally have less shit to do than people in their mid-20's, in college, and getting their shit together. Kids love the allure of hacking. So not only will it have a more active member base, but the member base will actually be interested in it. Face it, hacking shit is tight. Hacker kids do brag a lot about their 1337n355 at school, and even though it's immature, it will strike the interests of their peers.
Learn to delve into the minds of others.
We need to make this place more vibrant and inviting. With a more active mod/admin base, we can get more people involved.
Take enigma for example, they are very active and a lot of mods are as well. Here, a mod is usually on for less than half an hour before leaving for a few days. We lack consistency. And that in itself is a recipe for disaster.
Lend your suggestions. Maybe one of the "higher-ups" will notice and consider your suggestions.
Arabian wrote: [quote]ellipsis wrote:
We need very intelligent nerdy high school kids with zero lives to run this place.
I'm in college, but I'd be happy to mod and start producing articles and later, some challenges for those willing to be here and participate. [/quote]
Likewise. I'm beginning my second semester soon. If I don't get this job as a TSO, I will definitely volunteer to mod as well. I also submitted an article recently that I'm waiting to be approved.
I figured we should start a thread to discuss this matter instead of filling the shoutbox. This does not deserve a thread.
You want a few suggestions: try spreading the word http://www.hellboundhackers.org/urban/index.php
Or start submitting, content. http://www.hellboundhackers.org/submit.php?stype=n http://www.hellboundhackers.org/submit.php?stype=a http://www.hellboundhackers.org/code/codesubmit.php
Or create interesting, and relevant threads about security, programming, and etc. You don't need to be a mod to do any of that. If you really hate the current look and feel of the site create you're own. If its better they will come.
edit: I also think I should note that a complete redesign of a website, by a very small core of developers is going to take some time, be patient.
Did you seriously just link to the Urban and News section as submission possibilities? GTFO. This is a serious topic and deserves to be treated with respect. The Code bank will not help. The News section is not controlled by us or accepted often enough to be considered feasible. The Urban section is a fucking joke. [Redacted cuz i don't feel like being a mean person tonight]. This thing won't work unless we have mod support, and right now, 1 has cancer, 1 never shows up, and Korg clearly is left hung out to dry here. As for What_A_Legend, good to see you back. Lemme know if you need my or spy's help on the new project. We'd be happy to help.
Now, @ellipsis, I'll ask a few people to start writing more and contributing articles, and I have a few articles of my own I'll upload, but if there's to be any progress, we need everyone asking as many questions as possible.
As far as Admins go, In case you didn't notice I'm on everyday at least 2-3 times logged in but I'm always checking the site through the day for new posts and such. Making younger inexperienced "kids" is a recipe for disaster as was recently displayed with Fagtasm, We need Admins who know the site and what is acceptable, period.
If you guy's want the site to grow and become active, Yes submit GOOD articles, post in the forum, etc. Also if anybody has any extra programming challenges I'm all ears, I have one but was waiting to release it.
I am aware of the bugs and glitches in the site and can hopefully get them squared away soon. There is a Redev team going on right now but I'm not disclosing any info on the project so don't ask.
Hopefully we can pull together and keep this place up, Christ I've been here over 6yrs. now and never gave up, yet.
EDIT: @ellipsis I published your article for you but it not on the front page (Just another glitch in the admin panel again) It's on the articles main page.
korg wrote: Fagtasm
Hehhehehehehehehehe. He was smart, you've gotta give him that. His main problem was Cheese not allowing him to fix anything. Also, I have noticed, Korg, that you are here. I just happen to think Cheese is a bastard and has thrown you and the other admins under the bus.
As for challenges, I'm coming into some money soon, and will be building a desktop in the next few months. I'd be happy to host Rooting challenges on that box if I can get some help. If you wanna talk more I've got many ideas for challenges in that realm and others.
Be patient guys, there is a lot of love out there still for this site amongst a bunch of old members.
We are working on something at the moment, and will be updated in the near future I am sure.
In the meantime why not start some interesting programming/hacking threads, write articles work on challenges, invite friends.
Thanks
I think the main issue is that it always appears as if nothing is happening. It looks like the admins aren't doing anything and Cheese isn't letting anyone who wants to do something actually do it (including the admins). It is very nice to hear otherwise, though.
As far as asking questions in the forum goes, it feels like the majority of the time I ask, there is no useful answers :/
Arabian wrote: As for challenges, I'm coming into some money soon, and will be building a desktop in the next few months. I'd be happy to host Rooting challenges on that box if I can get some help. If you wanna talk more I've got many ideas for challenges in that realm and others.
That would be pretty damn awesome. Those challenges that stdio did on his box a while ago for all of us were a ton of fun.
What_A_Legend wrote: Be patient guys, there is a lot of love out there still for this site amongst a bunch of old members.
We are working on something at the moment, and will be updated in the near future I am sure.
In the meantime why not start some interesting programming/hacking threads, write articles work on challenges, invite friends.
Thanks
Good to hear :) Is this entirely separate from Mordak's project?
stealth- wrote: I think the main issue is that it always appears as if nothing is happening. It looks like the admins aren't doing anything
That couldn't be further than the truth, Some of us are working on the redev team and trying to get the site corrected for right now.
I'm getting in contact with Mordak to see what he has and if he'll share it.
If you guy's want to be involved stop yakking and get coding, send me some templates or what ever you got we'll look at everything!
As far as challenges go I have a shit ton of them sitting waiting to be uploaded, In the mean time like I said previously make up a few extra programming challenges to run some competitions. let's back off blaming anyone and get moving.
korg wrote: [quote]
That couldn't be further than the truth,
Half truths. Only recently was Legend accepted as an admin, and only in the last few days has this new public repo been started (10 days created, 0 work done).
But I think what Stealth- is referring to has been the last 5-6 months of relative inactivity, with only you, Mordak, and Cheese as active mods, with Mordak and Cheese having little, to no presence on this site, leaving 1 mod for hundreds of users. That being said, what -has- been done with the site? All we see is a broken PM system, no dynamics site-wise, and a non existent owner and developer.
Hello all,
I am going to set this straight for everyone that is looking at the Repo that has been set up.
There are many people who are actively working on setting everything up for a new system. From all that I know which my conversations with Dan (Mr Cheese for those who do not know him by name yet) Mordak was AWOL and Dan figured the new system to be dead. That is when What_A_Legend and I came up with a plan and presented it to Dan. He accepted our offer, and since then we have began to assemble an elite team of developers and marketing masters. This new change will not be something that is done over night as there are MANY changes that are happening. The reason nothing is started in the coding yet on the GitHub page is because all the logistics are being discusses and we are ensuring everything about the schema, framework and any other factor of the new system are covered. We do not want to make this system take for ever to come, but we are wanting to ensure that the system is logically laid out and everything is how it needs to be to ensure speed, security and scalability.
If anyone has any questions please feel free to contact What_A_Legend or myself and we will work with you to get the answers, if they are ones that can be divulged.
AldarHawk wrote: and since then we have began to assemble an elite team of developers and marketing masters
Namely: everyone who is willing to request a pull. Don't mention "elites" or "masters", there are none! This is open source development, anyone can contribute if he or she has something to bring to the table. I understand the need for some hierarchy to properly arrange stuff, but the less hierarchical fluff, the better.
AldarHawk wrote: If anyone has any questions please feel free to contact What_A_Legend or myself and we will work with you to get the answers, if they are ones that can be divulged.
Backdoor meetings? Yeah, fuck no. Use the github wiki and set up a FAQ, and Q&A kind of thing. Information wants to be free, remember?
Arabian wrote: [quote]Firebolt wrote: :o Looks like I was quoted… I just do happen to be in High School, but as you can see, I'm still pretty new and inexperienced. I happen to visit HellBound Hackers 4-5 or more times a week. I don't know if there is much I can do to help, but if you need me for something like moderating a thread or something, just PM me. Good Luck and :DHappy Hacking!:happy:
Holy shit I'm going to break your legs if I have to read blue text again.[/quote]
LOL
@Arabian: Lmao xD
Spyware has an excellent point. Having a github repo might be be exactly what we need. That way, everyone can see development and participate. It's a shame we don't have access to Mordak's work (if there is any), but this is a step in the right direction for sure.
Obviously the logistics side of things will take a lot of work, as everyone would want to be sure to get things right. It is just very nice to be able to see the progress.
korg wrote: If you guy's want to be involved stop yakking and get coding, send me some templates or what ever you got we'll look at everything!
As far as challenges go I have a shit ton of them sitting waiting to be uploaded, In the mean time like I said previously make up a few extra programming challenges to run some competitions. let's back off blaming anyone and get moving.
Very valid point.
spyware wrote: Don't mention "elites" or "masters", there are none!
And you know this as a fact spyware? You know all the people I have recruited to the team personally? You know the professional standings of every single person on the team? So please do not state things when you do not know all the people on the list man. I know you like to be cynical but please know all the facts before you go off your rocker.
spyware wrote: This is open source development, anyone can contribute if he or she has something to bring to the table. I understand the need for some hierarchy to properly arrange stuff, but the less hierarchical fluff, the better.
Yes anyone can contribute. However, contribution has to fit within the development scheme. If people want to add their own little features, they are more than welcome to help us. But, that does not mean every piece of code will be in the final product. We are looking to build a site that is fast, secure and serves the purpose that we are targeting. The main reason that I am trying to get everything in order before development starts, is to ensure that we do not get into another HBH v2 situation where the programming starts, goals are not set thus not met and people complain about the lack of the change that was promised.
spyware wrote: Backdoor meetings? Yeah, fuck no. Use the github wiki and set up a FAQ, and Q&A kind of thing. Information wants to be free, remember? Yes, most things can be divulged on the wiki system from github. That being said, it is not something that at this point in the project I am looking to share with the world until we have everything set. My main point from the "talk to us" note that I made, is to ensure that people know that we are here to talk. It does not mean we are going to open all information to the world. Yes it does want to be shared, however, not all information is free. I understand where you are coming from spyware, but you must understand where I am coming from on this project. I am looking to bring this site back to the days of old and all of this bitching and moaning and negative hearsay is not the way to accomplish this. If you want HBH to succeed please trust in the new administration of the site.
AldarHawk wrote: And you know this as a fact spyware? You know all the people I have recruited to the team personally? You know the professional standings of every single person on the team? So please do not state things when you do not know all the people on the list man. I know you like to be cynical but please know all the facts before you go off your rocker.
Woosh, that's the sound of my point going over your head. When I stated that there are no "elites", I meant that anyone could contribute, and that their contributions have nothing to do with the hierarchy of elitism you have concocted.
Yes anyone can contribute. However, contribution has to fit within the development scheme. If people want to add their own little features, they are more than welcome to help us. But, that does not mean every piece of code will be in the final product.
Do you know how pull requests work?
We are looking to build a site that is fast, secure and serves the purpose that we are targeting. The main reason that I am trying to get everything in order before development starts, is to ensure that we do not get into another HBH v2 situation where the programming starts, goals are not set thus not met and people complain about the lack of the change that was promised.
It's a bit of PHP and SQL, not exactly rocket science.
Yes, most things can be divulged on the wiki system from github. That being said, it is not something that at this point in the project I am looking to share with the world until we have everything set.
It's an open source effort, share everything. Whatever conditions and arbitrary deadlines you've come up with… share them. They have to survive public scrutiny in order to be valid anyway.
My main point from the "talk to us" note that I made, is to ensure that people know that we are here to talk.
In public, I hope. In a forum everybody is able to read and post in.
It does not mean we are going to open all information to the world.
No, we're sharing everything.
Yes it does want to be shared, however, not all information is free. … I understand where you are coming from spyware, but you must understand where I am coming from on this project. I am looking to bring this site back to the days of old and all of this bitching and moaning and negative hearsay is not the way to accomplish this. If you want HBH to succeed please trust in the new administration of the site.
I trust nothing. Public scrutiny or die.
I do not want to get into a pissing match with you spyware because you are nothing but cynical about basically everything in life. However, I will answer some of your points quickly and expect some "snappy" remarks back again from you.
spyware wrote: Do you know how pull requests work? Yes. spyware wrote: It's a bit of PHP and SQL, not exactly rocket science. Who said anything about PHP and SQL? spyware wrote: It's an open source effort, share everything. Whatever conditions and arbitrary deadlines you've come up with… share them. They have to survive public scrutiny in order to be valid anyway.
Yes, when the deadlines and everything are set, they will be on the GitHub page. That is why we made it.
spyware wrote: In public, I hope. In a forum everybody is able to read and post in. Not a promise, but all that is relevant will be.
patiently awaits a standard spyware response
my suggestion :-
get a black background and some nice graphics with neon colours
and a chat system
and maybe some root - each - other games
i may sound noobish , but believe me , this can be the required change to revive our beloved HBH
p.s. fix the pm system fast , someone
and keep the flaming minimal
AldarHawk wrote: I do not want to get into a pissing match with you spyware because you are nothing but cynical about basically everything in life.
Even if this were true, I still take offense that you seem to equate a discussion with a "pissing match".
Yes.
Okay, if you know how this works, then why say things like "not [..] every piece of code will be in the final product"? It's a non-issue; people can fork, code and request a pull. If you properly document project goals, milestones and to-do's, we'll be fine.
Who said anything about PHP and SQL?
I guess this means we're going to use Ruby? I'm glad that we're able to break away from the PHP/SQL paradigm… What replacement for SQL did you have in mind?
Yes, when the deadlines and everything are set, they will be on the GitHub page. That is why we made it.
Okay, so when you say things like "it is not something [..] I am looking to share [..] until we have everything set.", what do you mean? Do you mean that setting deadlines and project goals is done by a certain group of people behind doors, and therefore invisible to the public eye? This obviously is a bad idea; this project is for the people and as such, they should have a say in the matter. You can't set project goals if you don't gauge the community.
Not a promise, but all that is relevant will be.
Here's a promise: I'll make sure there will be a public setting in which people can talk about this, and NO subject will be off limits… and there will be NO decision that can't be made or reverted.
AldarHawk wrote: [quote]spyware wrote: Don't mention "elites" or "masters", there are none!
And you know this as a fact spyware? You know all the people I have recruited to the team personally? You know the professional standings of every single person on the team? So please do not state things when you do not know all the people on the list man. I know you like to be cynical but please know all the facts before you go off your rocker.
spyware wrote: This is open source development, anyone can contribute if he or she has something to bring to the table. I understand the need for some hierarchy to properly arrange stuff, but the less hierarchical fluff, the better.
Yes anyone can contribute. However, contribution has to fit within the development scheme. If people want to add their own little features, they are more than welcome to help us. But, that does not mean every piece of code will be in the final product. We are looking to build a site that is fast, secure and serves the purpose that we are targeting. The main reason that I am trying to get everything in order before development starts, is to ensure that we do not get into another HBH v2 situation where the programming starts, goals are not set thus not met and people complain about the lack of the change that was promised.
spyware wrote: Backdoor meetings? Yeah, fuck no. Use the github wiki and set up a FAQ, and Q&A kind of thing. Information wants to be free, remember? Yes, most things can be divulged on the wiki system from github. That being said, it is not something that at this point in the project I am looking to share with the world until we have everything set. My main point from the "talk to us" note that I made, is to ensure that people know that we are here to talk. It does not mean we are going to open all information to the world. Yes it does want to be shared, however, not all information is free. I understand where you are coming from spyware, but you must understand where I am coming from on this project. I am looking to bring this site back to the days of old and all of this bitching and moaning and negative hearsay is not the way to accomplish this. If you want HBH to succeed please trust in the new administration of the site.[/quote]
Calling yourselves 'masters' and 'elites' is either incredibly high-minded and masturbatory, or a gimmick aimed at the lesser members to satisfy their anxiety. Either way, I do not believe anyone in the realm of webdev may call themselves masters, and I think I speak for all the older members and for the good of the newer members when I ask for honest rhetoric.
Also, being a master of PHP or Javascript is like being the master of riding a tricycle.
:o Looks like I was quoted… I just do happen to be in High School, but as you can see, I'm still pretty new and inexperienced. I happen to visit HellBound Hackers 4-5 or more times a week. I don't know if there is much I can do to help, but if you need me for something like moderating a thread or something, just PM me. Good Luck and Happy Hacking!
Okay, I am going to set everything straight (hopefully) in this post.
@spyware: I am not meaning that this discussion is a pissing match. What I meant by the comment is the fact that no matter what anyone says you always come at it negatively. You can look at all your historic posts and ask nearly all members who have had dealings with you. You can be extremely negative. It is really not good for your health.
I made a misstatement about the lack of SQL. What I meant to say is MySQL. We do not have all the details sorted out yet, but once we know exactly the route that we are taking with this, I will ensure that people know.
@others: When I state that I have masters and gurus I simply mean that I have a lot of people in the team that know a lot about the systems and different programming languages. I have people who have been working professionally as programmers in many languages, also ones who have been doing it for many years proficiently.
"A guru is a spiritual teacher, but is also used to refer to anyone knowledgeable in a particular area"
This is why I use the word, as there are many of the people who I have brought on board who are knowledgeable in the area of web programming within many languages.
Once again, I will keep you all informed as to the progress if the GitHub seems stagnant.
Well, I come back after about four years to this thread and here's what I think.
I'm with spyware.
When I used to frequent this site years ago, I often was willing to contribute and was always stalking around helping on forums and suggesting things. I even submitted a few challenges, that I was told would be implemented, but would take a few months because there was a pretty big workload. Looking, even now four years later I can't see any of those challenges.
The problem with this site has always been the same. The people who are in a position to make changes and work on the site, work in a very closed-circle and are reluctant to share anything. With many projects that works fine, a team of people can work together without having to share anything and can get a project completed. Unfortunately, this is not that sort of project, because it's being done by people who have other priorities and who can often only communicate over the internet.
The solution is exactly what spyware is trying to say. Proper open-source development. Where absolutely anybody can make some attempt to fix, change or implement something. Having them writing absolute shit is not a problem, it can just be ignored and not added (as I beleive spyware was trying to say when he mentioned how Pull Requests work)
The potential issue with this is exposing things that do need to be kept secure, such as login and user management. Simple, though. Have that seperate from the open source stuff.
This is a "hacking" community who claim to be big on freedom of information and not keeping secrets. The common cliche phrase "Practice what you preach" fits pretty well here.
Also, you're probably not arsed, but: Spyware, I admire your dedication. You've were here long before I was, and it seems that you have stayed along the way, and are still trying to push people on here to sort things out even though most of them seem to piss on your attempts. I'd have given up long ago if it were me.
tl;dr? Rant about how HBH is managed by people who are too reluctant to open up and let the (very abled) community (who are probably more than willing to help) really contribute anything, without kissing the arse of some admins and jumping through some hoops first.
A lot of people jumping to conclusions at the moment. Information is not currently available as it is still very much a work in process.
I can confirm the 'buck' has been passed from Dan to Aldar and myself. We are currently talking with Richo and trying to put together a new more stable server - this is needed as you can see from the problems we had last week.
We have given Korg permission to patch any serious projects with the site as well as post any missions challenges he sees fit.
As with all open source projects there is a team of developers that come up with the initial idea. Once this is done and the server is built this will be an open source development, as it currently stands we plan to re-build the whole site to be more scalable and robust and easier for members to create plugins.
As previously stated there is a github wiki and all information will be made available here in time.
If you allowed us to move on and not having to keep replying to these posts this information would of been given to you in due course and when we were ready for all members of the HBH community to help.
The plan is to build a community by the community as this is the way the internet should work.
What_A_Legend wrote: As with all open source projects there is a team of developers that come up with the initial idea.
Anyone else dying of laughter? The "intial idea" has been pitched countless of times over the past four years…
Anyhow, what does "building the server" entail? Just setting up an environment in which an open source community can thrive? Also, who is setting the project goals, and who will be reviewing pull requests? How will the public be able to participate in those things?
You and aldarhawk keep mentioning a certain group of people who supposedly are deserving of more than a usual amount of influence in this project. How were those members chosen, and why? How will that group change over time, and why is there such a group in the first place?
spyware wrote: You and aldarhawk keep mentioning a certain group of people who supposedly are deserving of more than a usual amount of influence in this project. How were those members chosen, and why? How will that group change over time, and why is there such a group in the first place?
Okay, to put everyones minds at ease I will simply list some of the members that I have brought back from the olden days (6 years ago+) that have stated they will help with the project where possible.
Richo (You all should know Richo).
SkareCrow (The original one who ran WarpedCoders) Who is currently working for a company who is implementing a huge system in Ruby and he is one of the main programmers on the team.
T-Metal (You heard me right) If you do not know the name, look it up. He was huge when HBH was.
SlimTim (See Above) Once again, see the T-Metal comments.
This is just four of the members that I have brought back on board. There are many others that are frequents on the site and ones that used to admin HBH as well. Our main target right now is an attempt to get the main system up and running by Early to Mid June of this year. Once the framework is complete I am planning on opening the system up to the public. The reason I am so hush-hush right now is because we are still working on base systems, what framework style we will be utilizing, programming language(s) we will be utilizing for the backbone of the new system and what SQL system we will be using.
For now my thoughts are that we are going to program the main system in Ruby with a PostgreSQL database utilizing a MVC framework of the system. But this may be over turned if the masses of the initial programing team think it better to go another route.
Once again, if you have any other questions please feel free to post them here and I will do my best to answer them.
But there's no reason to be hush-hush, dawg! I don't understand the secrecy about free open work for a site that all members are invested in seeing improve, and who's work will be released and developed by members for free as well.
That sounds like great news and it's good to see some older members of whom I've never met potentially contributing.
After all, THIS:
was not very convincing.
As annoying and harassing as spyware may seem Aldarhawk, he's just speaking for the group of us which don't want to be cut out here and not actually see anything happen, which is exactly what happened before.
It's tremendously good news to see such a large member comeback though, although I've never met most. It's especially nice to see the site change hands.
Are you going to be taking over ownership of HBH, or just management?
Arabian said: But there's no reason to be hush-hush, dawg! I don't understand the secrecy about free open work for a site that all members are invested in seeing improve, and who's work will be released and developed by members for free as well. The reason I am being hush-hush on this, is because I just want to ensure everything is underway before anything big is brought to the forefront. It will be an open source system for sure, and anyone will be able to give us their code for inclusion in the system if it is acceptable. I wanted to ensure everything is ready for this to happen before it was all put out there though. But that is fine, you all know we are working on it, and if you have issues with it, you will voice them.
richohealey said: Holy shit. I'm still a thing. Well, you are far more than a thing IMO Richo. You are one who knows a lot and has real life experience in all this.
stealth- said: As annoying and harassing as spyware may seem Aldarhawk, he's just speaking for the group of us which don't want to be cut out here and not actually see anything happen, which is exactly what happened before. I know full well what happened before. If you knew me you would see that it is what originally drove me (and I am sure many others) away from HBH. I know everyone wants in and spyware is saying what a lot of people are scared too say, but it is not always what is said. Often it is the way the message is presented. People will get less defensive if the statements are not made in an attack.
stealth- said: It's tremendously good news to see such a large member comeback though, although I've never met most. It's especially nice to see the site change hands. Are you going to be taking over ownership of HBH, or just management? Yes I know it is good to see that some of the older members are coming back, and it is all through contacts that I have retained. The site changing hands is also another thing that will spur a lot of change for HBH. As for the ownership of HBH, that is still all fully under discussion. I am working on it, and my ultimate goal is to take full ownership, but it depends on many different aspects as to how this all turns out.
For anyone else who has not put their opinions here, please do. I am looking for a civil talk on this, as I am looking for the best option for the community and I am wanting to ensure that the community as a whole thrives and grows. No need for stagnant ideas and ideals to bog us down. Let's bring HBH back to the glory days of old, and exceed the expectations.
spyware wrote: It is absolutely inexcusable that a team of "prime" HBH Redux members was chosen without discussing it in a public forum, and it is absolutely terrifying that you want to make sure that "everything is underway" before a discussion has taken place in which project goals are determined.
One major project goal has been set already and it is on the GitHub as well. I am looking to build this all in my spare time, as all the other people are as well. When someone works 40-60 hours a week in one of their two jobs, and they also have a side business that takes up the remainder of my spare time, I am building the project schedule into my spare time (which is sometimes null). So you understand that even though the project is under way it is in the spare time of all the members that are looking at it. If you are wanting to join in the efforts of getting the system built please let me know and I will work with you as well.
AldarHawk wrote: One major project goal has been set already and it is on the GitHub as well. I am looking to build this all in my spare time, as all the other people are as well. When someone works 40-60 hours a week in one of their two jobs, and they also have a side business that takes up the remainder of my spare time, I am building the project schedule into my spare time (which is sometimes null). So you understand that even though the project is under way it is in the spare time of all the members that are looking at it. If you are wanting to join in the efforts of getting the system built please let me know and I will work with you as well.
You definitely shouldn't consult like this on a case-per-case basis; vivify the wiki on GitHub with alterable pages denoting project outlines, milestones and goals, and then make sure that wiki page is visible for every HBH member (ie. news post and a forum thread on here).
spyware wrote: [quote]AldarHawk wrote: One major project goal has been set already and it is on the GitHub as well. I am looking to build this all in my spare time, as all the other people are as well. When someone works 40-60 hours a week in one of their two jobs, and they also have a side business that takes up the remainder of my spare time, I am building the project schedule into my spare time (which is sometimes null). So you understand that even though the project is under way it is in the spare time of all the members that are looking at it. If you are wanting to join in the efforts of getting the system built please let me know and I will work with you as well.
You definitely shouldn't consult like this on a case-per-case basis; vivify the wiki on GitHub with alterable pages denoting project outlines, milestones and goals, and then make sure that wiki page is visible for every HBH member (ie. news post and a forum thread on here).[/quote]
Agree. Without that, you end up confusing the shit out of everyone, and in the process, repeating the same thing again and again.
And the return of the old members makes butterflies fly in my stomach. Really really cool.
Ok, a nontrivial way in which people can participate at this early stage:
Here is the current repo. There's basically no code in it, for now it's just an issue tracker.
https://github.com/HBHRP/Redux
If you've got time on your hands, start filing issues and filling out the wiki (filing issues is the most helpful).
Please try to be articulate. I don't need 10k "It should be fucken awesome" issues clogging up my feed, but I'm happy enough to triage them and provide feedback.
For those of you a bit more fluent, when we're moving a bit further down the dev part, even just writing the title for testcases and specs is massively helpful (and ties in directly with the codebase)
richohealey wrote: Ok, a nontrivial way in which people can participate at this early stage:
Here is the current repo. There's basically no code in it, for now it's just an issue tracker.
https://github.com/HBHRP/Redux
If you've got time on your hands, start filing issues and filling out the wiki (filing issues is the most helpful).
Don't know anything about git. I guess it's time now.
AldarHawk wrote: The reason I am so hush-hush right now is because we are still working on base systems, what framework style we will be utilizing, programming language(s) we will be utilizing for the backbone of the new system and what SQL system we will be using.
Not to encourage more arguments, but why exactly does this mean anything has to be kept hush-hush?
Deciding what framework style, programming language(s) and what SQL system does not have to be kept hush-hush.
In fact, surely this could be something that the community would benefit from helping to decide? If you're planning on having the community put a lot of work into this, then it just makes it even better that they have a say in what tools to use, right?
reaper4334 wrote: Not to encourage more arguments… Never start a post like this, unless you actually ARE trying to encourage one.
reaper4334 wrote: Deciding what framework style, programming language(s) and what SQL system does not have to be kept hush-hush. No, it does not have to be. But we were still working out all the logistics of the project and I was only speaking with people of whom I trusted and who I knew would be able to help. Even now, all the logistics are not sorted out, but there is nothing I can do about that. The reason it was being kept hush-hush was to ensure that everything in the move went smoothly. Constant bickering on the forums is not a way to help the process of a changing of the management team.
reaper4334 wrote: In fact, surely this could be something that the community would benefit from helping to decide? If you're planning on having the community put a lot of work into this, then it just makes it even better that they have a say in what tools to use, right? Are you offering to help reaper? What are you willing to contribute? You going to program the framework? You going to use any specific language? What about Database systems? These are not as easily discussed on a board where everyone thinks they are right and (from what I see a lot) no one can really come to a consensus about anything. There is way too much negativity around here as to what can(not) be done and I was not in the mood for that when I was in talks with Dan to take over the site.
I fully understand all of your concerns about this, but you need to note, that I am doing this as a goodwill gesture because I believe that HBH can be so much more than it has become. If you do not like the decisions that are being made please talk to me about them. It can be publicly here, as has been the case with spyware and a few others, or privately so all fears can be quelled and you can rest easy.
I know this posting is going to bring a lot of negativity back to me, but please note that if you want to flame me, have fun, just know that no matter what is said, I will continue to manage the way I manage.
Overzealous project manager? Check. Who died and made you boss, boss?
And you don't get to say you're doing it out of "goodwill" and thus, get to dismiss any criticism or questions people might have. You just don't, okay, so don't even try it. You're replaceable, everybody is. Your "goodwill" isn't the lifeline of this project, and when it stops the project boulders on.
Edit: And misrepresenting thoughtful analysis as a "flame"… disgusting. It should be clear to anyone that reaper wasn't flaming anyone, he even felt the need to wrap his post in a cuddly feel-good sentence to ensure people wouldn't overreact to a simple query. And you did. For shame.
spyware wrote: Overzealous project manager? Check. Who died and made you boss, boss?
No one died spyware. I was assigned management of the site by the current owner…Dan. Project Manager? No. Site Manager. Yes.
spyware wrote: And you don't get to say you're doing it out of "goodwill" and thus, get to dismiss any criticism or questions people might have. You just don't, okay, so don't even try it. You're replaceable, everybody is. Your "goodwill" isn't the lifeline of this project, and when it stops the project boulders on. You think without someone to take up the reins and work with everyone to get the project underway and completed it will get done? Let's look at HBHv2. I know Mordak has issues with health and such, but no one took the reins and set deadlines. No one was really managing the system. Where is it today?
spyware wrote: Edit: And misrepresenting thoughtful analysis as a "flame"… disgusting. It should be clear to anyone that reaper wasn't flaming anyone, he even felt the need to wrap his post in a cuddly feel-good sentence to ensure people wouldn't overreact to a simple query. And you did. For shame. Nothing about your thoughtful analysis was ever interpreted as a flame spyware. I was simply stating that I did not want this to turn into something that often happens on these boards…
My opinion is that HBH is dying not due to a lack of features or it's flawed infrastructure, but instead because of it's community. The community is small and most new members come primarily for the challenges while rarely posting in the forum.
I've seen two common types of hacking communities. One is a large community of script kiddies trying to learn to hack and the other is a small group of hackers that share information. In my opinion, HBH is somewhere in between these examples, and I feel that in order to become a stable community, the administrators have to decide on which type of people they want the site to cater to.
As it is now, HBH will die a slow death. If you guys want to attract new people, then you have to cater to the script kiddies. Otherwise, we are the only community that will be. New age hackers have Anonymous and Lulzsec as role models and older hackers generally aren't looking for new communities to join. This appears to be how hacking culture has evolved and there is little that can be done to redirect it.
In regards to the renewal of HBH, I primarily agree with Spyware in that it should be built for the community by the community, however, I also understand AldarHawk's argument that we had our chance and chose inaction. It's like the child who wants the toy only when someone else wants to play with it. Personally, if the community were allowed to build the new HBH, I would contribute, but not likely by much. I'd like to say I would contribute a great deal to it's development, but I can't because I'm selfish and would likely put my own projects before HBH. If someone else is willing to shoulder the burden of having the site rebuilt under their management, then I say go for it, because I'm not going to do it and I doubt many others would either.
There. My $0.02 has been deposited.
AldarHawk wrote: [quote]reaper4334 wrote: Not to encourage more arguments… Never start a post like this, unless you actually ARE trying to encourage one. [/quote] Perhaps that phrase will often encourage more arguments, but it is intended as a disclaimer for anybody willing enough to read it, to let them know that I'm not an expert with words and help them understand that what I'm about to say may be taken aggressively when it is not intended that way.
AldarHawk wrote: Are you offering to help reaper?
Not exactly. I'm saying that if things are done right, nobody needs to offer to help, they can simply get everything they need together and work with it. There should be no need to offer help, that's not how a proper open-source project works.
AldarHawk wrote: What are you willing to contribute? You going to program the framework? You going to use any specific language? What about Database systems?
I'm willing to contribute some code, some effort on issue tracking and writing in a wiki. I'll happily download some code and run some unit tests. I'll also happily hang around in a development based IRC channel offering help to people that want to help but aren't sure where to start. Sure, once there's somewhere for me to write some code I'll help program the framework. I'll use PHP, Python, Javascript and/or XHTML. Database systems? MySQL. …Do you see what I'm getting at? These are all the things I can use, as a contributor, and so these are the things I'm going to suggest using because I will be more useful. If every willing contributor made such a suggestion we'd be able to choose whatever the community would work best with, for work that the community will apparently be doing.
AldarHawk wrote: These are not as easily discussed on a board where everyone thinks they are right and (from what I see a lot) no one can really come to a consensus about anything.
What happened to the voting system? Seems like that would be a good way to get a consensus. Yeah, I agree people often do think they are right on this board. But, if we're asking what the community would prefer to use to work on the site, then do the community not know best? If the intention here is to have the community work on the site then why not have them choose the tools they know best, rather than choosing the tools that a smaller minority of people prefer, which leaves a lot more of a burden on their shoulders and presents the risk of the same thing happening again, where they have to leave for some reason and the project just gets left for somebody else to take and attempt to piece back together.
[Edit:] I'm sorry my posts all seem to end up so long, I get a little carried away and end up repeated myself, it seems.
KvK wrote: My opinion is that HBH is dying not due to a lack of features or it's flawed infrastructure, but instead because of it's community. The community is small and most new members come primarily for the challenges while rarely posting in the forum. That is attempting to be brought to front. I do not fully think that this is the case, but I do agree partially. I think more of the reason the site is dying and the people are leaving is due to lack of administration of the forums and the site as a whole. That is what I am attempting to change.
KvK wrote: I've seen two common types of hacking communities. One is a large community of script kiddies trying to learn to hack and the other is a small group of hackers that share information. In my opinion, HBH is somewhere in between these examples, and I feel that in order to become a stable community, the administrators have to decide on which type of people they want the site to cater to. Why does it have to be clear cut as you are stating. Focus on either Script Kiddies OR Veteran Hackers. The hacking community as a whole is not clear cut, so why does a site that is geared towards them have to be? Our final goal is to increase the viewers and knowledge of the community. I have a few other items that I have in the back of my mind that I would like to introduce to EM, but until the site is rebuilt I will keep those to myself.
KvK wrote: As it is now, HBH will die a slow death. If you guys want to attract new people, then you have to cater to the script kiddies. Otherwise, we are the only community that will be. Once again I could not agree less with this opinion of yours, but thank you for sharing it. I believe that we need to cater to the entire hacking community as a whole. Try to bring in veterans as well as new players to get them thinking outside the box and not just in their one little area.
KvK wrote: In regards to the renewal of HBH, I primarily agree with Spyware in that it should be built for the community by the community, however, I also understand AldarHawk's argument that we had our chance and chose inaction. It's like the child who wants the toy only when someone else wants to play with it. Personally, if the community were allowed to build the new HBH, I would contribute, but not likely by much. I'd like to say I would contribute a great deal to it's development, but I can't because I'm selfish and would likely put my own projects before HBH. If someone else is willing to shoulder the burden of having the site rebuilt under their management, then I say go for it, because I'm not going to do it and I doubt many others would either. Thank you for this honest assessment. I am not stating that spyware is totally wrong in his statements. Far from it. I know him well and have for many years. But his is just one opinion of many that i have in other conversations.
reaper4334 wrote: Not exactly. I'm saying that if things are done right, nobody needs to offer to help, they can simply get everything they need together and work with it. There should be no need to offer help, that's not how a proper open-source project works.
reaper4334 wrote: I'll use PHP, Python, Javascript and/or XHTML. Database systems? MySQL. No expansion of your known languages? If you know Python and PHP Ruby should be simple enough to pick up.
If you want to help out, join in on the GitHub page and get forking and pulling.
As a final note, thank you all that have contributed to this discussion, and I hope more of you come and do. Let's get the entire thing hashed out and get HBH back to the ways of old.
AldarHawk wrote: As a final note, thank you all that have contributed to this discussion, and I hope more of you come and do. Let's get the entire thing hashed out and get HBH back to the ways of old.
Nothing has been hashed out, the "core development team" was still chosen undemocratically and decisions are still taken arbitrarily and behind closed doors. Nothing about the development process is transparent.
AldarHawk wrote: [quote]reaper4334 wrote: Not exactly. I'm saying that if things are done right, nobody needs to offer to help, they can simply get everything they need together and work with it. There should be no need to offer help, that's not how a proper open-source project works.
reaper4334 wrote: I'll use PHP, Python, Javascript and/or XHTML. Database systems? MySQL. No expansion of your known languages? If you know Python and PHP Ruby should be simple enough to pick up.
If you want to help out, join in on the GitHub page and get forking and pulling. [/quote] You appear to have misunderstood what I wrote, or perhaps skipped most of it.
AldarHawk wrote: As a final note, thank you all that have contributed to this discussion, and I hope more of you come and do. Let's get the entire thing hashed out and get HBH back to the ways of old. I don't want to make this personal in any way, but I would just like to point out that although you're asking people to share their thoughts etc. on here, you're also disagreeing with most of them, and I can't see a single suggestion that you've taken up or agreed with.
Also, where's all the rest of the development team? Shouldn't they be big in these discussions, too? I feel like this is becoming a bit of an argument with AldarHawk, which is obviously not what it's supposed to be.
Hellow please refer to the posting http://www.hellboundhackers.org/forum/hbhredux_also_dubbed_hbhrp-41-16634_0.html#post_158598
I'm really happy to see there are people who started to do something. And I emphasize see because when I first read about HBHv2 was coming in December of 2011 (if I remember well), then nothing happened, except some update news. I barely believed that suddenly, from day to day a new site was appeared.
But now, having a git repo, discussions in forum, seeing that people really want to changes on HBH… this is completely different and I became more excited than the last time, because I believe that the HBHv2 is on its way.
In my opinion and as others wrote above as well, sharing the project and involving anyone who want to help is the best (only?) way to develop the new HBH site. That's what going to make us a strong community.