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The ethics of hacking


ghost's Avatar
0 0

I was reading The Prince By Niccolò Machiavelli, and I came across the following quote: 'Because a necessary war is a just war and where there is hope only in arms, those arms are holy.' -Livy

I was wondering how people here felt about how that quote applies to hacking/hacktivism. Not the 'holy' part (it's an old book) but the rest of it.

Is a necessary 'hack'(or crack) a just one?

Take for example the great firewall of china, or the activities of the milw0rm group(specifically the 'nuclear' attack). What do you guys think about these things?

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. Frederich Nietzsche


richohealey's Avatar
Python Ninja
0 0

Frankly I don't think about the ethics of it much any more. I trust myself to generally make the right choice, although generally my actions upon finding an exploit vary based on the following variables: a) The reason I was looking for an exploit iin the first place b) Hoe much of a pain in the arse it was to find it c) How generally bitter at the world I am that day. so yeah, I think that if you have to think about what is the right thing to do then, you've gone overboard.

I believe that most people are fundamentally good, or at least i try to.


spyware's Avatar
Banned
0 0

Don't speak of good and evil. In essence, these things are the same, they are reversable poles. You would have to think beyond good and evil, you will end up thinking about consequences.


richohealey's Avatar
Python Ninja
0 0

well put spyware


spyware's Avatar
Banned
0 0

Yes, also, notice I have 30 warn points. You will most likely accosiate them with "bad", even if you don't know the cause of these warnings.

Funny how something can be bad, but you don't know anything about the cause of what you see.

These accosiations are your ethical principles, but they actually don't matter anymore if you know the truth.

Ethics are based on vague ideas, while the truth discovers the true identity of something.


AldarHawk's Avatar
The Manager
0 0

I think that has nothing at all to do with "hacking" but again I am one of the guys who thinks hacking is not wreaking havok on anothers machine (that is rooting or cracking). I think that what Spy says is too true though because true bliss would be found in anarchy. The only problem with this is us as Humans are too mundaine, greedy and have far too much lust for power for Anarchy to truly work for us. Give us another few thousand years and perhaps we may beable to live in a world of harmony without laws to bind us down. But until that we can only dream of utopia…


ghost's Avatar
0 0

Maybe it is early, but I think that this thread will also get the name "Who's the best hacker" same like some thread before ("How to piss of a real hacker").

Well, there are lot of definitions of 'hacker'.

I don't know much about those ethics, but I know what is good and what is bad….

(I just had to say something) :)


spyware's Avatar
Banned
0 0

AldarHawk wrote: I think that has nothing at all to do with "hacking" but again I am one of the guys who thinks hacking is not wreaking havok on anothers machine (that is rooting or cracking). I think that what Spy says is too true though because true bliss would be found in anarchy. The only problem with this is us as Humans are too mundaine, greedy and have far too much lust for power for Anarchy to truly work for us. Give us another few thousand years and perhaps we may beable to live in a world of harmony without laws to bind us down. But until that we can only dream of utopia…

Speak for yourself Aldar =], bounded by rules are only the ones with problems in society, rules prevent problems. But if you prevent problems yourself, you won't need any rule to guide you.

I always share my candy. I am never hungry because the people I shared with will share some candy, too. If everyone shares, there is no need for being greedy.

Start sharing.


AldarHawk's Avatar
The Manager
0 0

You just proved my point though Spyware ;)

It is Human nature to always want more. You may think you do not because you share your "candy" so to speak. But think deeper…what drives Humans to be better?

Lust for something more! They want something more than they have (at least in North America which is where my opinions derive from).

People think Knowledge is Power and Power is Wealth…this is so far from the truth it is not funny…It is not the Knowledge that is powerful it is being able to USE that knowledge which makes you powerful.

You cannot become strong if you know OF a Dumbell…you have to USE it properly to gain said power. The same goes for everything…but most (in NA that is from my knowledge) just have the knowledge but rarely use it.

See Human nature is flawed which makes anarchy impossible.


spyware's Avatar
Banned
0 0

Well, maybe the good old human greedylaws don't apply to me. So much for human flaws.

I'm patching.


AldarHawk's Avatar
The Manager
0 0

Spyware == Human v1.0 :P

Most others == Human v0.5

Aldarhawk == Human v2.0 ;)

Richo == Slug v3.0 BETA

Sorry had to make this! :P

[edit: sorry couldn't help myself]


spyware's Avatar
Banned
0 0

AldarHawk wrote: Spyware == Human v1.0 :P

Most others == Human v0.5

Aldarhawk == Human v2.0 ;)

Sorry had to make this! :P

How could you ever lable the versions of humans. Are you god? No, you are human v2.0 which proves you cannot know this.

It's a guess, a poor one too.


AldarHawk's Avatar
The Manager
0 0

Am I not…?

Anyways…I was just joking around mate…about your "Patching" comment :evil:


spyware's Avatar
Banned
0 0

AldarHawk wrote: Am I not…?

Anyways…I was just joking around mate…about your "Patching" comment :evil:

Speaking of which, you should patch your poor humour algorithms, they are outdated and inefficient.


AldarHawk's Avatar
The Manager
0 0

AldarHawk patches himself to AldarHawk v. 2.1

Now all Ph34r m3! | 0wn j00 411!!!


spyware's Avatar
Banned
0 0

Any more people interested in ethics?

:|BACK ON TOPIC|:


richohealey's Avatar
Python Ninja
0 0

AldarHawk wrote: Spyware == Human v1.0 :P

Most others == Human v0.5

Aldarhawk == Human v2.0 ;)

Richo == Ninnja v3.0 BETA

Sorry had to make this! :P

oooh aldar, i didn't know you respected me this much!


AldarHawk's Avatar
The Manager
0 0

sorry I think you meant to put Slug 3.0 BETA not Human :P


ghost's Avatar
0 0

Good and evil are defined by our society. When you make a "bad" or even "evil" decision, it is society who condemns your "bad" decision.

If you were to be raised with no human influence and then hypothetically have fantastic computer skills to the point where you compromise a credit card website.

You have the choice of reporting the flaws, leaving the whole thing alone and forgetting about it or using the cards.

Purely in terms of self interest I would choose to use the cards. I'm not rich and there are material objects that I'd like to posses. I can't currently afford them so my best route is to use stolen money for instant gratification.

Of course jungle boy (read above) doesn't care about material possessions but he doesn't have a social conscience either. This is where we have a conundrum. Does he steal the money or does he leave it alone?

Perhaps you could define morality when you get that situation. But I bet he'd steal the money. It's the human condition. We're greedy. Read Dante, Greed is one of the sins. Talk to a psychologist, greed is a motivating factor for the majority of the population. Watch the television, adverts are telling you that you'll be happy when you have their product, implying that you're missing something until then.

So yes it's not about right or wrong, it's about being human. And no you can't escape that.


ghost's Avatar
0 0

AldarHawk wrote: Spyware == Human v1.0 :P

Most others == Human v0.5

Aldarhawk == Human v2.0 ;)

Richo == Slug v3.0 BETA

Sorry had to make this! :P

[edit: sorry couldn't help myself]

I notice you left me out!


AldarHawk's Avatar
The Manager
0 0

sas01 wrote: Good and evil are defined by our society. When you make a "bad" or even "evil" decision, it is society who condemns your "bad" decision.

If you were to be raised with no human influence and then hypothetically have fantastic computer skills to the point where you compromise a credit card website.

You have the choice of reporting the flaws, leaving the whole thing alone and forgetting about it or using the cards.

Purely in terms of self interest I would choose to use the cards. I'm not rich and there are material objects that I'd like to posses. I can't currently afford them so my best route is to use stolen money for instant gratification.

Of course jungle boy (read above) doesn't care about material possessions but he doesn't have a social conscience either. This is where we have a conundrum. Does he steal the money or does he leave it alone?

Perhaps you could define morality when you get that situation. But I bet he'd steal the money. It's the human condition. We're greedy. Read Dante, Greed is one of the sins. Talk to a psychologist, greed is a motivating factor for the majority of the population. Watch the television, adverts are telling you that you'll be happy when you have their product, implying that you're missing something until then.

So yes it's not about right or wrong, it's about being human. And no you can't escape that.

Well written Sas but again … you just proved my points 100%.

Criminal intent is human nature…we lust for more of everything we do not have. That is what is wrong with the world…but this will be a deep conversation…too deep for basic ethics.


ghost's Avatar
0 0

Ultimately you're saying that the human race is what's wrong with the world. Well, I've heard of man being his own worst enemy but that takes it to a whole new level.

We're conditioned by society and so we follow the laws of society. Simple as that.


AldarHawk's Avatar
The Manager
0 0

I was talking about true anarchy, total order through the lack of law.

Humans cannot do this.

NOTE: Mozzer…you are 1337 v 3133.7 ;)