My Rant - By The_Flash
My rant.
Well basically this is about the people on this site who have been deluded by this sense of good gesture and believe just because they joined this site that they should change their ways and be ashamed that they want to learn how to hack for malicious reasons.
Anyone who says : "Why hack if you don't have a good reason?" or something along those lines….
Fun. Boredom. Accomplishment.
You get a kick out of doing something you know you shouldnt. Hacking isn't legal and who gives two dead dogs about the media and how they portray "us".
When I'm bored and if I wanted, I would hack a batch of sites if they were all vulnerable to the same exploit out of pure boredom. What is so wrong with that?
Accomplishment…. Your that one better. You beat the system.
So when do good morals and ethics come into play and why?
Why do people feel they should act differently here because they may have different views to Mr_Cheese.
I'm just fed up of the same shit on these forums with people being like "OMG I HACKED A SITE, FORGIVE ME FATHER FOR I KNOW NOT WHAT I DO".
And then getting the shit flamed out of them.
I know this post wasn't the most articulate but you get my point.
Quit bitching at people for choosing different paths.
Look at mittnick, what did he get arrested for? Look at the mentor, what did he get arrested for?
ILLEGAL HACKING.
So quit being hypocritical and bitching about people hacking when you have respect for the bigger guys.
Black hats, White hats, Grey hats. Forget it. Your all hackers.
I have not much more to add, and as much as I want to go into a long rant agreeing with you, it would be pointless…so I leave you with this quote and standing ovation:
"To each man his own, and to each his own way…for the path does not exist, but there do exist many. Only one can know what path is right for him. To each man his own…" – Neo_Chalchus (The differences of being the same, Published 2003)
/me claps slowly starting a dramatic chain of other claps.
Well I totally agree. I however, managed to find a way of having my cake and eating it too. I follow the ways of the Hacktivist. I feel that just hacking sites only proves you are better than the system, and while this is fun for a while, it serves no real universal purpose. You can only keep using other peoples exploits for so long to deface an IPB or a CMS, after you get bored with that what do you do? The answer I came to was hacktivism. This gives me a sence of real acomplishment, not just some petty hack on a site no one has ever heard of. It may be a smal rascis, nazi, or child pornography site, but when it is all said and done you can bet that the ammount of acomplishment I feel for taking something inhuman off the internet is loads larger than what I feel for hacking a two bit IPB or Skiddie site. I am not saying this is the path for everyone, I am just stating that I found the method that best works for me and the way I want to hack. If you have found it is your way congrats, if not then I am glad you found your own methodology.
Flash…Normally you know I take your sides on shit but in this case you are sadly mistaken(unless I have mistook the point of this post).
Yes I am a hacker. I am like many others. I have morals though. I do not hack for shits and giggles. I hack to learn and further myself. If by doing this I help others great. I have never once (In a long long long while) hindered anyone in my actions and thirst for knowlege. If all you hack for is Accomplishment or to be known then you are in it for the wrong reason.
Look at the NHL for instance. The reson behind the new rules is because the players are no longer playing for the thrill of the game. they play now for fame and money. That is in my opinion pathetic.
Now you mention the Mentor and Mitnick. Yes they did illegal things. but in retrospect they did not go on a site saying "Pwnd by The Mentor" or "I h4x0rd Ur 455 - Kevin Mitnick". They did it to further themselves. So please do not rant off on people who get flamed for doing stupid shit and complaining when they get caught. If you push the line you will get caught if you push it too far. The only problem is that many people on this site do not know what TOO FAR is.
So please do not take this as a flame (You know me better than that). Take this as advice. let them complain and get flammed. If they are at a point where they need to do shit to look good then they deserve what they get. Any ways…that is enough of that. Just stay in a line that will keep you out of trouble and you will be fine! My Two Cents…Fine…Perhaps Six! :evil:
To address the earlier post by AldarHawk: I see where you are coming from, but I interpret his post differently, or at least I proccessed it differently. I still do not belive that randomly defaceing sites is ok, I find it morally wrong…but I belive that whatever the others do is their choice, and aside from just voicing our opinions like civlized people, we have no right to tell somone that what they are doing is wrong and they should stop through way of flaming.
I felt, and mabye I read it incorrectly or differently, that the point wasn't that all forms of hacking are necissarily ethical and to be tolerated by the law; but instead that we…as fellow hackers…should at the very least respect their desicion in life.
I dunno, mabye my head is just wacked up and I can't get the right meaning otta anything…or just misrad it…whatever,
just my 1 6/47 cents, NC
It's funny isn't it SlimTim how I was almost banned for stating almost the exact same thing.
I state that hacking is a crime, no matter how whitehat you are, you are still breaking rules. And for that the thread was deleted, and I was told to be quiet or be banned.
Well Flash you have no idea how greatfull I am that finally somebody else agrees with my viewpoint :)
Hacking is a crime, I'm sorry.
I'm not agreeing that its moral to go and deface everything in your path, don't get me wrong.
But by law, no matter the reason, hacking is a crime.
AldarHawk wrote: Yes I am a hacker. I am like many others. I have morals though. I do not hack for shits and giggles. I hack to learn and further myself. If by doing this I help others great. I have never once (In a long long long while) hindered anyone in my actions and thirst for knowlege. If all you hack for is Accomplishment or to be known then you are in it for the wrong reason.
There is no such thing as right or wrong reasons. I fully respect your reason for hacking, it is similar to mine, but you can't be intolerant and say anyone that hacks for another reason is wrong. They have their own reasons, a lot of the time for fame and attention. Wanting fame is human nature, and some people see hacking as their route to fame. Whether they ever make it there is another question ;)
AldarHawk wrote: Now you mention the Mentor and Mitnick. Yes they did illegal things. but in retrospect they did not go on a site saying "Pwnd by The Mentor" or "I h4x0rd Ur 455 - Kevin Mitnick". They did it to further themselves. So please do not rant off on people who get flamed for doing stupid shit and complaining when they get caught. If you push the line you will get caught if you push it too far. The only problem is that many people on this site do not know what TOO FAR is.
Dno what to say, that was just as good a point as Flash's :p
/joins Neo_Chalcs clapping :p
It's funny isn't it SlimTim how I was almost banned for stating almost the exact same thing.
I state that hacking is a crime, no matter how whitehat you are, you are still breaking rules. And for that the thread was deleted, and I was told to be quiet or be banned.
Well Flash you have no idea how greatfull I am that finally somebody else agrees with my viewpoint :)
Hacking is a crime, I'm sorry.
I'm not agreeing that its moral to go and deface everything in your path, don't get me wrong.
But by law, no matter the reason, hacking is a crime.
AldarHawk wrote: Yes I am a hacker. I am like many others. I have morals though. I do not hack for shits and giggles. I hack to learn and further myself. If by doing this I help others great. I have never once (In a long long long while) hindered anyone in my actions and thirst for knowlege. If all you hack for is Accomplishment or to be known then you are in it for the wrong reason.
There is no such thing as right or wrong reasons. I fully respect your reason for hacking, it is similar to mine, but you can't be intolerant and say anyone that hacks for another reason is wrong. They have their own reasons, a lot of the time for fame and attention. Wanting fame is human nature, and some people see hacking as their route to fame. Whether they ever make it there is another question ;)
AldarHawk wrote: Now you mention the Mentor and Mitnick. Yes they did illegal things. but in retrospect they did not go on a site saying "Pwnd by The Mentor" or "I h4x0rd Ur 455 - Kevin Mitnick". They did it to further themselves. So please do not rant off on people who get flamed for doing stupid shit and complaining when they get caught. If you push the line you will get caught if you push it too far. The only problem is that many people on this site do not know what TOO FAR is.
Dno what to say, that was just as good a point as Flash's :p
/joins Neo_Chalcs clapping :p
i agree with the flash, and blumoose, but also with aldarhawk,
all over the world, people have different ethics, they think different. look at the issue in the middle-east. it is the same in the cyberworld, we all think different, some people categorize themselves by giving themselves hats. some people want to hack the shit out of sites. some people want to report bugs they find in sites.
Myself, i think hacking is a crime. You find a bug, which you've done illegaly in most cases, now i don't want to get flamed for my opinion, we have freedom of speech, all over the internet.
/me joins the clapping…
Dunno if im "allowed" to comment here, what with me being a no0b, but i will anyway.
You gotta look at it from the other persons perspective imo. You hack someones site, and deface it for "shits and giggles" and because you can. You had your five mins of fun, but now the host has to sort that mess out.
How would you feel if i came into your house and smashed all your shit up because i was a bit bored one day? How would you like it if i dipped my hand into your wallet any time i felt like it because i could?
You wouldnt like that, would you? Why should it be different just because you dont meet these people face to face?
Im not condoning it, but you have to put yourself in the "victims" shoes and imagine what it must feel like to find out his site is gone, or his bank accnt/paypal ect has being wiped clean ect.
Aliarse wrote: Dunno if im "allowed" to comment here, what with me being a no0b, but i will anyway.
I wish I could say your rank or status doesn't matter here, but unfortunatly it does seem to. Don't be ashamed of it, if you think you're a noob, so will others.
Aliarse wrote: You gotta look at it from the other persons perspective imo. You hack someones site, and deface it for "shits and giggles" and because you can. You had your five mins of fun, but now the host has to sort that mess out.
How would you feel if i came into your house and smashed all your shit up because i was a bit bored one day? How would you like it if i dipped my hand into your wallet any time i felt like it because i could?
You wouldnt like that, would you? Why should it be different just because you dont meet these people face to face?
Im not condoning it, but you have to put yourself in the "victims" shoes and imagine what it must feel like to find out his site is gone, or his bank accnt/paypal ect has being wiped clean ect.
Nobody ever said its the right thing to do. People do have ethics. People do hack things to report bugs or to make a point.
All that's being stated is that it's still a crime. Unauthorised hacking is against the law, no matter what the reason.
And going with my first point, most people don't take the time to think about the victim. Or if they do, they don't care. Human nature for you -.-
(Stereotype/metaphor stories: )
(1)Poor man needs food otherwise he will die–>you steal food–>you give the man food, he lives. You are wanted by the cops.
(2)no one needs food–>you steal food–>you eat the food–>you are wanted by the cops
(3)Poor man needs food otherwise he will die–>You think "I can't do anything about it"–>the man dies
(4)Poor man needs food otherwise he will die–>you steal food–>you eat the food–>the man dies–>you are wanted by the cops
Lets connect these stories with "hats". Most people will think that: (1)=White hat (2)=Black hat (3)=no hat (you're no hacker) (or a n00b ;)) (4)=you're an asshole
Now, forget about the freaking hats. Who are YOU? You can't define YOU with a color.
So, I'm kind of agreeing with the_flash. Forget the hats. Who are you?
That's right. A hacker. You've got power.
What you do with, it is your choice.
(but don't expect people will like you if you let the man die)
:whoa:
@AldarHawk - N_C basically answered my point. I wasn't encouraging the act of pointless defacing and I appreciate your post as it has extended this topic even further.
I've also noticed that when giving the example of someone who hacks a site, they automatically use 1337 5p34k.
Example - Locus7. No-one can deny they are better 'hackers' than the majority of people here. (Or the people who DO hack. NOT the ones you can but choose not to)
But just because they hack things that you may not like - They are labelled skiddies. Just because they hack HBH, everyone says "z0mg l0cus7 r s0 l33t!!!!11one!" sarcastically mocking someone who hacked this precious site of yours.
I hate locus7 as much as the next dude here, but i'm not naive enough to say different to above.
Just because someone can trash a whole domain - Doesn't mean they should. But if they do - So be it.
And the person who said that "how would you feel etc etc" I would feel gutted. It happened before. All that happened was I read more, Learned more and got the bastards back.
Some people will clearly care more than others. But it's their own fault. Their own error WHY they got hacked. 1.) Flaw in code. 2.) Using public CMS 3.) Hated enough for people go to further extents.
I will continue on this once I've thought of more things to add. I don't want to ramble on for no reason.
-The_Flash- wrote: @AldarHawk - N_C basically answered my point. I wasn't encouraging the act of pointless defacing and I appreciate your post as it has extended this topic even further.
I've also noticed that when giving the example of someone who hacks a site, they automatically use 1337 5p34k.
Example - Locus7. No-one can deny they are better 'hackers' than the majority of people here. (Or the people who DO hack. NOT the ones you can but choose not to)
But just because they hack things that you may not like - They are labelled skiddies. Just because they hack HBH, everyone says "z0mg l0cus7 r s0 l33t!!!!11one!" sarcastically mocking someone who hacked this precious site of yours.
I hate locus7 as much as the next dude here, but i'm not naive enough to say different to above.
Just because someone can trash a whole domain - Doesn't mean they should. But if they do - So be it.
And the person who said that "how would you feel etc etc" I would feel gutted. It happened before. All that happened was I read more, Learned more and got the bastards back.
Some people will clearly care more than others. But it's their own fault. Their own error WHY they got hacked. 1.) Flaw in code. 2.) Using public CMS 3.) Hated enough for people go to further extents.
I will continue on this once I've thought of more things to add. I don't want to ramble on for no reason.
Another great point, hit it exactly on the spot :p
On one hand, HBH is always encouraging people to hack it.
On the other, if they do, they are called skiddies and n00bs that can't hack.
If they couldn't hack, I wonder why they managed to deface hbh?
Calling them skiddies, noobs, and retards only makes other people dislike hbh more, making them want to deface it aswell.
BluMoose wrote: On one hand, HBH is always encouraging people to hack it.
On the other, if they do, they are called skiddies and n00bs that can't hack.
If they couldn't hack, I wonder why they managed to deface hbh?
Calling them skiddies, noobs, and retards only makes other people dislike hbh more, making them want to deface it aswell.
I don't entirely agree with you there. They are encouraging people to hack HBH, yes. But they don't encourage releasing the source and people who hack the site using a bruteforcer.
-The_Flash- wrote: Just because someone can trash a whole domain - Doesn't mean they should. But if they do - So be it.
i have the rare ability to be able to throw rocks through windows.
so if i walk past your house and throw a rock through your window - so be it?
same princible. its mindless crime and destruction with no regard for the person it affects. thus, the mentality of a chav, and i think we all share the same views on chavs.
anyways, what im saying is capacity should not equal intent. yes i agree hacking something does give a great sense of achievement. BUT this sense of pride is dramatically increased when you do infact use your morales and hack something you truely disagree with and know that it will help others.
i strongly feel theres a time and a place for hacking. im not saying "dont do it, you evil bastards". im saying, think before hand, have some empathy for who it affects. its stupid saying that every single time you hack a random site for fun, its "ok, because the webmaster has shit security he deserves it". thats just a really really prickish way to think. (ofcourse a few expections)
very crude example here: you'd get alot more satisfaction, respect and pride from being a super-hero than you would a super-villan.
Mr_Cheese wrote: [quote]-The_Flash- wrote: Just because someone can trash a whole domain - Doesn't mean they should. But if they do - So be it.
i have the rare ability to be able to throw rocks through windows.
so if i walk past your house and throw a rock through your window - so be it?
[/quote]
Using that same example, heres how hats would work:
Blackhats = throw brick through window and leave. Greyhats = throw brick through window, feel bad, and apologise to owner Whitehats = throw brick through window, feel bad, and tell owner where to get another cheap window.
In the end, everyone is throwing the brick, and everyone is a criminal ;)
BluMoose wrote: Using that same example, heres how hats would work:
Blackhats = throw brick through window and leave. Greyhats = throw brick through window, feel bad, and apologise to owner Whitehats = throw brick through window, feel bad, and tell owner where to get another cheap window.
In the end, everyone is throwing the brick, and everyone is a criminal ;)
Hmm… I disagree…
Blackhats - throw brick through window and leave Greyhats - feel good knowing they have found a window which they can throw a brick through - not throwing one though Whitehat - warn the owner that someone could through a brick through their window
Let's not get into this brick malarkee.
Cheese - I agree with you but the point I was making was what is the difference between that and hacking because of a personal opinion on something.
Say I wanted to hack hbh because it deleted my account. It doesn't make it right because they annoyed me. It's still hacking. If someone hacks me, I get annoyed and hack them back. Guess what… It's STILL hacking.
Hacking is hacking is hacking. No way of getting around it.
A website endorsing terrorists - Whats the different between you hacking that and teh_leeb_p00nz0r hacking a blog. Your opinion. That's all.
If you say to me your a hacker, but a white hat. In my eyes, your not a hacker.
If you hack a site for the sake of hacking a site, that's your decision.
I'm not saying I would agree nor encourage it or even embark on such activities myself - but I would RESPECT the person to make their own decisions as I would even though I disagree with them.
BluMoose wrote: [quote]Mr_Cheese wrote: [quote]-The_Flash- wrote: Just because someone can trash a whole domain - Doesn't mean they should. But if they do - So be it.
i have the rare ability to be able to throw rocks through windows.
so if i walk past your house and throw a rock through your window - so be it?
[/quote]
Using that same example, heres how hats would work:
Blackhats = throw brick through window and leave. Greyhats = throw brick through window, feel bad, and apologise to owner Whitehats = throw brick through window, feel bad, and tell owner where to get another cheap window.
In the end, everyone is throwing the brick, and everyone is a criminal ;)[/quote]
heeheh funny stuff
Computer enthusiast or security expert. imho.
I know how to play tennis - But I'm not a tennis player.
You will probably respond to the hacker/cracker/tracker/backer/packer bull shit.
People are trying to distinguish a difference between themselves to much.
Your either a hacker. Or your part of the rest.
I also hold no disrespect to people.
Especially you AldarHawk - You have my upmost respect.
It seems to me that you have lost the true meaning of what a hacker is. A hacker used to be someone who was an entusiast who takes it to the next extreme. I am such a person. yes I do specilize more in hardware but without the knowledge of the TCP/IP stack you are nothing. without the know how of the inner workings of a Router then you are really nothing but a web cracker. Truthfully if you are a true hacker then you are someone who knows what power is and knows where to apply it. That is the simple matter. Many hackers of today know a hell of a lot and never will get caught because of this. There are few of those anywhere.
A hacker is a hacker is a hacker as you stated. The only thing that you missed is that a hacker is not someone who goes around using their power for their own good/gain. the purpose of us is to help and aid those who are less fortunate than us. I hope you take this to heart because it is 100% true. Yes I know a lot more. I have a lot more experiance. Yes I am older. This makes me wiser as well. True you could more than likely find an XSS in some random website and exploit it but that does nothing at all to the world other than have people say "Hey that guy can hack" does that really matter? I am who I am and I share my knowledge with others to try to help them see the path I walk. This is my choice and you all have your own. But I have been doing this shit for many more years than most of the people on this site are old so please for the sake of myself so not throw out the advice of an old badgering hacker. Just accept that this is the way of the world we partake in called the interweb.
I am sorry for not agreeing and I know you have respect for me but without respect for my ways there is really no respect at all. Cheers man.
Being a hacker does not make you a criminal, it makes you someone with the potential to be.
in another secse, somone with a shotgun is not a murderer, but he could be.
If you exploit a web site and do whatever to it, you are no differnt to the common burgular, you have simply taken an opportunity to steal something from someone else.
It all depends on wether you win or not, as the winner always writes the histroy.
is it right to hack a site with child porno on it, well i dont think so, the correct thing to do would be to report the website to the autorities. if you take it out yourself, good on you, but you have then commited a crime. and you must then live with that.
its like the whole Nelson Mandela thing, you might say he wa right to stand up for what he belived in. but you could say he was wrong as he broke the law, wether the law is "wrong" or not is irreelvant. Nelson Mandla was a criminal, he broke the law.
So lets say some hacker takes out every child porno site on the web 2 things will happen
a. he wins, is a global hero b. he gets caught hacking a site he should not be in, is arrested, everyone sees him as a evil hacker who could start a nuclear war from a bloddy Playstation. or a pervert.
there is always 2 sides to everything. neither is right or wrong, as they are opinions.
Really Really interesting post…. lol old but still good!
i know its morally wrong but IF i was able to randomly XSS attack small websites im pretty sure i would, probably because of the joy it would give me that iv hacked a website.
This could be because im new and iv never hacked a website apart from a shitty guestbook which i wouldent evan call hacking lol, who knows… when i get better at hacking and have made my own website i might feel there is no need
PureEvil wrote: Being a hacker does not make you a criminal, it makes you someone with the potential to be.
in another secse, somone with a shotgun is not a murderer, but he could be.
If you exploit a web site and do whatever to it, you are no differnt to the common burgular, you have simply taken an opportunity to steal something from someone else.
It all depends on wether you win or not, as the winner always writes the histroy.
is it right to hack a site with child porno on it, well i dont think so, the correct thing to do would be to report the website to the autorities. if you take it out yourself, good on you, but you have then commited a crime. and you must then live with that.
its like the whole Nelson Mandela thing, you might say he wa right to stand up for what he belived in. but you could say he was wrong as he broke the law, wether the law is "wrong" or not is irreelvant. Nelson Mandla was a criminal, he broke the law.
So lets say some hacker takes out every child porno site on the web 2 things will happen
a. he wins, is a global hero b. he gets caught hacking a site he should not be in, is arrested, everyone sees him as a evil hacker who could start a nuclear war from a bloddy Playstation. or a pervert.
there is always 2 sides to everything. neither is right or wrong, as they are opinions. is this what you see a hacker as: Hackers built the Internet. Hackers made the Unix operating system what it is today. Hackers run Usenet. Hackers make the World Wide Web work. If you are part of this culture, if you have contributed to it and other people in it know who you are and call you a hacker, you're a hacker. or as a cracker because if someone is a cracker then he is a criminal and if he is a hacker who knows how to H4X but never did then he is not a criminal
p.s. good points flash and aldrek* *sorry if i spelled it wrong, kinda in a hurry
what's an aldrek?
But seriously flash makes a good point. i agree you're not a hacker unless you hack. If nothing else the english language defines it as such.
i can remember being little more than a skiddy when i still had the fun of rooting randoms while giggling histerically. that just gets old. i find the challenge better than the payoff. sure it's cool to gain access to a foreign network, but the lead up when you suss out some vital piece of information, or something falls into place, now THAT's awesome.
people are too keen to pigeon hole themselves and others. do what you want. stop caring what everyone else thinks.
richohealey wrote: what's an aldrek?
But seriously flash makes a good point. i agree you're not a hacker unless you hack. If nothing else the english language defines it as such.
i can remember being little more than a skiddy when i still had the fun of rooting randoms while giggling histerically. that just gets old. i find the challenge better than the payoff. sure it's cool to gain access to a foreign network, but the lead up when you suss out some vital piece of information, or something falls into place, now THAT's awesome.
people are too keen to pigeon hole themselves and others. do what you want. stop caring what everyone else thinks.
So someone who can manipulate people into giving passwords through Social Engineering but does not is not a Social Engineer? Everyone makes points that are good but flawed. I am sure even I am doing this.
I know this is a dead post but lets raise it from the dead! Hacking is Hacking. It does not matter if you do. What defines what actual Hacking is? If I can make a program to do all my networking stuff at work for me is this hacking? I know you will all say no so I will move on to another point. If I can go through a network and find all the information in this network and not be detected but not take anything does this make me a hacker? What if it was my own network? What if it was a network I was on but did not set up all the systems? Am I still a hacker?
What if's are the lifeblood of the world. Without learning we are nothing.
As it has been stated by many people on this site…People who do not do the act of hacking are not hackers. Well Again as I have stated I do not agree with that 100%. Just because someone can but chooses not to (in a sense of the media perception) do something does not mean they are not such a person.
But again I am rambling. Many good points have been made here but many bad ones have as well. I will let you people Flame away if you like because I AM a hacker. Just because I am not like you does not make me not one. I am of a dying breed and many of the guys (who know who they are) totally agree with me on this though they stay quiet. Well that is enough for now…Enjoy the Flameage and Throw it my way :P
PS: I think aldrek == me but I could be mistaken. :evil:
I can play tennis - I choose not to.I don't call myself a tennis player ;)
I stand by the theory that to be something you have to act upon it.
Apologies AldarHawk but I misinterperated you previously and that post has cleared up my previous mis judgement. Indeed you are a hacker.
I was under the impression that because you could means your a hacker.
could shmould - It boils down to Do or don't. Hack or Don't Hack.
Again Flash I commend you for your point of view because without debate we would all be a dull bunch.
I am a hacker though not in the sense that many here think the term relates to. I do what I do (as I have stated).
I want to hear OTHER peoples view points on this so we can make this a nice discussion. Please read this from start to finish and add your two, three, four or five cents (how ever much you wish to) on the subject and lets get this on the roll!!
Hope to hear a well rounded debate on the subject ;)
I agree with flash more than alderhawk but alderhawk aswell if you follow me :whoa:…
I think that if you know how to do something but dont do it your not that something, but at the same time if your doing something like creating programs i would say thats a sort of hacking (but hey! im new to this lol)
people who know almost nothing get mixed up between cracking and hacking… i think cracking means cracking a password or something similar and hacking means most things to do with computers.
I dont want to talk abuot my opinions too much beacuse i know fuck all compared to you guys but thats what i think :D
I have to say I would agree more with AldarHawk than Flash. Saying one person is right and one person is wrong imho is wrong. We believe in what we do. My vision of hacking is figuring out how things work, and why they work how they do. Saying your a hacker because you cracked into a website is just agreeing with the media.
How I took it from "The Hackers Manifesto" is that he was bored, like many of us, and took the time to figure out how it works. He stated he found a new world on the net, and if he messes up it is because of him not someone else. He never stated what he did with that knowledge. He could have cracked into 1000 websites, or simply sat back and watched and figured out how to crack into 1000 websites.
Saying hacking is a crime because someone says it is is wrong… Just like calling a black person a lesser person because of his skin is wrong… Calling you not a hacker for not doing what I do, or you calling me a noob for not knowing something you know. I can say anything I want about anybody, but does that make it true? If your a hacker in your own mind, then I believe your a hacker. Just because I don't prove myself to YOU doesn't mean I'm any less then what I think I am.
We could also say to back fire it… I'm the best person in the world. It doesn't make it true just because I think I am. Or I'm the nicest person in the world. Hacking is different from these things, and you can't really compare them.
I've lost myself even with my post, sorry. :xx:
But I guess what I would be saying is just because someone does something different then you, does not make them any better or worse then you. I call myself a hacker because I seek knowledge in computers. If I have broken into a computer or not doesn't change the fact.
(Yes I know I have used some bad grammer in my post, sorry. :ninja: )
Zenrith wrote: Saying hacking is a crime because someone says it is is wrong… Just like calling a black person a lesser person because of his skin is wrong…
Err, no offence but that is really racist. I think you meant, "Just like calling a coloured person a lesser person just because someone has different skin them"
And I agree with Aldar, although -The_Flash- is mainly in the right, I believe in TreeBird's fundamentals on what is hacking
<!– Start Placebo's Opinion –>
-The_Flash- wrote:
…Your all hackers.
Simple as that.
HellboundHackers, not HellboundWhitehats, HellboundBlackhats, HellboundGreyhats, or HellboundIdontwearhats.
Why did you join this community in the first place?
Was it to learn more about web security? Maybe you wanted to learn how things work. Or, maybe you're one of the many losers who join this site in hopes that you can learn how to hack a porn site for free porn.
The point is, we all joined for one reason…to be a hacker. Maybe we all had different intentions and definitions for what a 'hacker' is.
A simple Google defintion search of the term 'hacker' states that a hacker is:
-A person who enjoys exploring the details of computers and how to stretch their capabilities.
-A malicious or inquisitive meddler who tries to discover information by poking around.
-A person who enjoys learning the details of programming systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users who prefer to learn on the minimum necessary.
No matter what definition(s) you believe in and follow, they are all of the same term: hacker.
You are all hackers.
-The_Flash- wrote:
I can play tennis - I choose not to. I don't call myself a tennis player.
I stand by the theory that to be something you have to act upon it.
I somewhat agree with you. In order to be a hacker, you must do what a hacker does. So what does a hacker do? Refer to my definitions. You are a hacker if you enjoy exploring, learning, or exploiting in the fields of web security or computer technology.
A fisherman is a person who fishes. A trucker is a person who drives trucks. A hacker is a person who hacks.
Flash, the example you provided to back up your theory leads me to believe that you define the term "hacker" as simply "one who hacks." Your theory is true in a sence, however, I hope we can all agree that a hacker is not just simply "one who hacks".
I am not telling anyone that they are wrong, nor am I disagreeing with anyone. This is only my opinion, and I am only 1 voice out of 14716.
<!– End Placebo's Opinion –>
Placebo wrote:
A fisherman is a person who fishes. A trucker is a person who drives trucks. A hacker is a person who hacks.
Flash, the example you provided to back up your theory leads me to believe that you define the term "hacker" as simply "one who hacks." Your theory is true in a sence, however, I hope we can all agree that a hacker is not just simply "one who hacks".
Precisely.
I don't call myself a hacker - I don't hack.
Although I still believe someone in Aldarhawks position is still a hacker.
I was referring to the terminology and that the way people call themselves hackers just to know and understand is them morphing a definition to suit them.
@Placebo - WTF
You made no sense (no offence) great post but you almost nailed the subject on the head, then you screwed up. You should have finished with
"A hacker is one who hacks"
That is true. The problem is finding the definition of hack or hacking
Well, instead of writing:
Defintion of a hacker:
One who hacks. See hacking/hacks..…
I sort of infused the two together. In plain and simple terms, a hacker is one who hacks. I just wanted to make it clear that there is more to it than that.
You're right, the trouble is in finding what the terms "hack" and "hacking" mean. In order to understand what a hacker is, you need to know what "hack" or "hacking" is.
I suppose the way I put it does seem a bit misleading. Thank you mozzer.
Zenrith wrote: Saying hacking is a crime because someone says it is is wrong… Just like calling a black person a lesser person because of his skin is wrong…
Mozzer wrote: Err, no offence but that is really racist. I think you meant, "Just like calling a coloured person a lesser person just because someone has different skin them"
Thanks Mozzer, sorry about that.
Okay so I see a few people part way seeing what I talk about.
But Flash did a back pedal it seems. But I will leave that.
People Hacking is a mind set and it is not an action. a Hacker is some one who does hack. But Hacking is not defined as breaking into computers. So we will see where this goes now :P
Yes and no…
A hacker is one who hacks. it is defining what hacking is that makes people stumble.
If one says he is not a hacker because he does not hack then so be it. But saying someone else is not a hacker because they do not hack per se is close to biggotry(I know a little extreme).
A hacker is a hacker. If someone thinks they are a hacker because they hack then so be it. If someone thinks they are a hacker because they are 1337 then they are pretty much falling into one of two categories…1) They are Falling under the medias interpritation of a hacker…2) They do not really know what they are doing but are really good at lying.
Either of these people are not hackers. A hacker is someone who lusts for furthering themselves in the computer field. Be this legally OR illegally.
and on the note of legal and illegal hackers, moral and imoral hackers, ethical and unethical hackers I have one thing to say.
White, Black, Grey, Rainbow, Blue, Green, Pink, Purple, Cyan…no color makes you cool. A hat is someone labeling you…the internet is meant to be a place with no labels, no prejudice, no judgement. It is meant to be the last free bastion of the world. We are destroying this by labeling ourselves and others. But this is me and my ramblings again ;)
Bring it on everyone!!! :evil: :matey: :evil: :matey:
White, Black, Grey, Rainbow, Blue, Green, Pink, Purple, Cyan…no color makes you cool. A hat is someone labeling you…the internet is meant to be a place with no labels, no prejudice, no judgement. It is meant to be the last free bastion of the world. We are destroying this by labeling ourselves and others.
ApplauseApplauseApplauseApplauseApplause**Applause
Nicely said! :)
I don't want to come out disrespectful but I feel like you (Aldar) are taking this whole thing way too far.
Who honestly gives a fuck about the media? Not me, because I don't give two flying fucks what people think of me.
Who honestly gives a fuck about the 'colour' of a hat? Not me, because I don't give a fuck what people think of me.
If someone pissed me off and I had the control the take down everything they have online - I'd do it.
If I had an 0day in a php framework and could take down 20 sites in one day - I wouldn't do it.
I don't call myself a hacker because of the definition given from the media. I am going by the definition that the public know. I am going by the definition that my friends and family know. I don't know any of you personally - So why would I catorgorise myself in the catogories you make.
I don't have a set view point on this - Purely because I don't care enough.
Sometimes I feel like you are all trying to be how the media portrays you - looking for information and whatnot.
Until you go into an environment like this, you don't know what (aldars) definition of a hacker is. So why change what you feel to fit in?
@ The fucking prick above biggnick. I'm not a hacker. I put TheWelshHacker as a joke because system_meltdown has TheBoredHacker and cubeman372 has TheLazyHacker.
I've also been the Naked hacker but a recent court order means I have to dress.
-The_Flash- wrote: @ The fucking prick above biggnick. I'm not a hacker. I put TheWelshHacker as a joke because system_meltdown has TheBoredHacker and cubeman372 has TheLazyHacker.
I've also been the Naked hacker but a recent court order means I have to dress.
If there was nothing useful in that post other than that last line then it was well worth my time. ROFL, thanks Flash. And I agree we are taking this too far but meh
flash, i ment no disrespect by my post but if your going to be a dickhead to everyone else maby you should be able to take what you dish out. you should stfu if you cant take someone insulting you back. i voiced my opinion, which was not the same as yours, and you flame me for it. i respect your ideas and you should in return respect mine instead of deleting my post. thats called admin abuse. i was in no way trying to flame you like you flame everyone else in these forums. it was a simple observation, im sorry if you thought i was trying to flame you.
that was an accident, but even so the flash deserves it for being a total asshole to everyone who has a different opinion than his. when someone finally decides to stand up to him he becomes a pussy and deletes edits their posts because he cant take being insulted despite the countless insults he has made. he is a hypocrite and will probably end up editing this post because he doesnt like it.
I haven't really seen all of what Flash does, cause I don't really keep tabs on people. But even if he has flamed some people, he has helped them out too. Lets get back onto the topic at hand, not who flames each other more.
And the media does come into play into the "hacker" role. Sure, they may not have it right about what we do, but they can mislead other people on the subject. And Flash has made some good points, but I would still lean more so with AldarHawk.
Just because I play tennis doesn't mean I'm a tennis player. (in truth, if you played tennis you would be a tennis player - just not a pro tennis player, but I understand what your getting at)
I am actually quite interested in this thread, and hope it keeps going (not with all the flames though) But I'm also not so sure what the importance of this thread is. If I call myself a hacker in my mind I am, and in your mind I might not be. Who in the end really cares? Am I calling myself a hacker for bragging rights? No. Am I calling you a hacker because you said you did something which I couldn't? No. I call myself a hacker because I believe that a hacker is someone who has a large interest in the computer software side (could be programming, to exploiting, to patching, to figuring out how it works) Hardware somewhat comes into play, but I don't really consider someone who just builds a motherboard a hackers. And I call you a hacker because that is what you want to be called.
I try to respect you, and equally like to be respected. We may be in it for different reasons, but in the end if you have the interest like most of us have, you have hacked. Say you only did something you shouldn't have done on windows, to bringing down a database online, to rooting someones computer for fun. There are different levels of hacking IMHO, but in the end if your truly into computers like I've tried to describe, or something similar along those lines, your a hacker. If you want to be called a hacker, then so be it; and if you don't, so be it. We're not trying to prove ourselves to others. Just do what you want to do and be called what you want to be called. View it how you want to view it. No matter what someone in life is going to disagree with you…
Hope I somewhat made sense, sorry if I lost you. (side note, I've tried to reread it; I've probably missed a lot of things, hopefully not as bad as last time.)
Great post - I would like to pick up on one little thing:-
Just because I play tennis doesn't mean I'm a tennis player. (in truth, if you played tennis you would be a tennis player - just not a pro tennis player, but I understand what your getting at)
I said I CAN play tennis. Didn't say I DID ;)
I could and I did are different things.
If I went out and played tennis- Indeed I would be labelled a tennis player. I don't. But I can play tennis. Im no tennis player because I don't play.
Being able to do something doesn't allways mean you are labelled as one.
well then, i have a question: u see, i am still learning about things such as XSS and sql injections and other things like that… –BUT– I have never hacked a site in my life, and im not trying to either, i just learn about this stuff for fun and wen i am much more skilled, maybe i will try it out (or maybe i will have a different mindset and feel that hacking a site is a waste of time, i dunno)
so back to my question…would you call me a hacker?
kingofstrings411 wrote: well then, i have a question: u see, i am still learning about things such as XSS and sql injections and other things like that… –BUT– I have never hacked a site in my life, and im not trying to either, i just learn about this stuff for fun and wen i am much more skilled, maybe i will try it out (or maybe i will have a different mindset and feel that hacking a site is a waste of time, i dunno)
so back to my question…would you call me a hacker?
First off, do you call yourself a hacker? Why ask anyone else what you are and what you aren't?
Second, IMHO I would say your a hacker. Could be beginning to hack or have 90 years of experience. Don't expect to get as much respect as a more experienced hacker, and don't act like you know it all. But your trying and your learning. I don't just consider a "hacker" one who breaks into a site. There are more things to it then that.
The most important question is what is hacking? Considering not just one person can clearly state 100% truly what hacking is, we all need to get a basic idea, and let the lines of hacking slide a little.
And for those people who might or might not be thinking about this question. (not sure if I've really explained this, just keeping up on this while working on other things… sorry). Say I was 15 years old and I know nothing of computers; yet I call myself a hacker. Does that mean I am? Who is the person who defines what and who we are? If I say I am then I am, just don't expect other people to believe you if you can't prove facts and evidence that you are what you say you are.
(Sorry if double post, I waited for a while after I got an error and didn't see my post.)
-The_Flash- wrote: Anyone else agree with me or are you to scared of getting flamed by the pr0z?
i am not scared and i voiced my opinion. you should be open to listening to others. we listened to your posts. all i ask is that you give me the same respect others gave you. i did nothing to insult you, but you flame me still. i dont care if you respect me or not, your respect means shit to me. just dont be a dickhead to people just for the fun of being a dickhead and flaming. i understand if someone comes and says "yo teach me to haxxor some compz do some illegal shit yo", then by all means flame them. but as it says in the rules, try to keep flaming to a minimum. 90% of the people you make fun of dont deserve it and back down as soon as they see your post. i am not one of them. you asked for others opinions, i gave you mine. if you only wanted to hear others if they agree with you, thats just retarded.
Okay…STFU with the flame topic all who are still hanging onto it!
Back on topic: Points here are all good. I have nothing much to say but bravo to those with the balls to stand up and state their opinions here. It is not an easy thing to do.
A hacker is one who hacks. but what is hacking? Many people ask this and I am sure I have many times. Hacking is not just software. Hardware can be hacked. Other things but computers can be hacked. Hacking is an art not a science. this being said you cannot fully define what hacking is. it is dynamic, it has ups and downs. It is not set in stone. But again the Media likes everything to be Static so they portray it that way. The bad is good for news right? Well Back to plugging away.
Keep up the work on these responses they are well writ and well thought out. Good to see this type of a refreshing debate.
bigggnick wrote:
i am not scared and i voiced my opinion. you should be open to listening to others. we listened to your posts. all i ask is that you give me the same respect others gave you. i did nothing to insult you, but you flame me still. i dont care if you respect me or not, your respect means shit to me. just dont be a dickhead to people just for the fun of being a dickhead and flaming. i understand if someone comes and says "yo teach me to haxxor some compz do some illegal shit yo", then by all means flame them. but as it says in the rules, try to keep flaming to a minimum. 90% of the people you make fun of dont deserve it and back down as soon as they see your post. i am not one of them. you asked for others opinions, i gave you mine. if you only wanted to hear others if they agree with you, thats just retarded.
not trying to be a dick here, but you say > your respect means shit to me.
but you want him to listen to your opinions and respect them? your saying he is contradicting his statements, but you do it in your own post as well.
[/off topic]
Truly, my belief on hacking, is either you do it or you don't. If you defaced something, you hacked it. But just because you hacked something, doesn't mean that you had to deface that site though. You can hack websites by simply getting things done, you don't have permissions to, but you don't have to make it obvious to the public that you hacked their site, by defacing their site and deleting files, etc. That is just overboard in most cases.
my final saying is: If you manipulate something to do something its not intended to do, then you are a hacker in my eyes, whether it be on the computer or not.
what i ment was that i just want him not to flame everyone who he disagrees with, if it is me or if it is someone else. he asked for others opinions, mine was not his, i posted it, he deleted it and flamed me. that is not right, even if it is someone who you dont respect you still should let them voice their opinion. if he disagrees, post a reply and dont delete my post.
I'm going to skip the other posts and throw my $.02 in.
I'm disgusted with you. If a scientest who wants to do battle with HIV is angry at a scientest who wants to develop a new disease to bring grief to humanity, by your logic he shouldn't be, nor should the other scientest be ashamed. They're both scientests, right?
I may be a lurker here, but I will boldy say that what you posted is disgusting and foolish.
as well as nalayah i am just a wonder in the mist of HBH but here is my 2 cents… black and white hats are relevant, and in them are just like "right" and "wrong" in the fact that they are a personal opinion, they are set on what one thinks, and what they believe is "right" and "wrong" so my right and your right could be totaly different, so the term "right" and wrong" and black hat, grey hat, white hat have no meaning except the one, that one gives it in their own mind
Nalayah wrote: I'm going to skip the other posts and throw my $.02 in.
I'm disgusted with you. If a scientest who wants to do battle with HIV is angry at a scientest who wants to develop a new disease to bring grief to humanity, by your logic he shouldn't be, nor should the other scientest be ashamed. They're both scientests, right?
I may be a lurker here, but I will boldy say that what you posted is disgusting and foolish.
Well stfu and read the whole thread before you cast an opinion you random slag.
-The_Flash- wrote: [quote]Nalayah wrote: I'm going to skip the other posts and throw my $.02 in.
I'm disgusted with you. If a scientest who wants to do battle with HIV is angry at a scientest who wants to develop a new disease to bring grief to humanity, by your logic he shouldn't be, nor should the other scientest be ashamed. They're both scientests, right?
I may be a lurker here, but I will boldy say that what you posted is disgusting and foolish.
Well stfu and read the whole thread before you cast an opinion you random slag.[/quote]
Oh look there you go again flaming someone who just posts an opinion. he didnt want to read through all the bullshit that your posting and by bullshit I mean your petty worth of flaming on people with real opinions. Why don't you try and stop flaming everyone on the site. And hmm try this try and contradic their opinions. It makes you look less like a baby which is what you are doing right now. :D
@hackthis59, by posting that, you're flaming him. [/offtopic] Can someone, or Aldarhawk sum up Aldarhawks opinion for me, and then -The_Flash-'s because I've been following this thing, and I'm not really sure who's saying what anymore. I'd like to participate, but as I said, not sure what's going on anymore, it started out good though. Thanks end3r