Im backkkk
It means we should start working on keeping them here before they decide to sneak away again. We need updates, we need news, we need something. I know for a fact that there are at least eight new challenges waiting to be released. My theme, along with a couple other challenges, still haven't been re-uploaded since the whole EG debacle. I've even sent in a script that'd change rankings to be percentage-based rather than hard-coded numbers like you guys suggested way back who-knows-when. (COM actually did all the number-pushing for this. I just wrote up the script to get it all ironed out. If you want to thank anyone, make it him, not me.) People just need to start implementing stuff.
There's no time like the present.
Also- welcome back everyone. Not sure if I said that earlier, but I don't feel like opening another tab to check and saying it twice couldn't hurt, right?
I agree with Futility, this website needs some serious updates, and now is probably the best time to do it, considering for some wierd reason all the old members are coming back. I mean, I know Mr. Cheese really doesn't do anything around here, but what about the other admins, can't they make any changes? If not, Mr. Cheese should at least allow someone else to move this site forward, if he refuses to do it himself. I'm not trying to insult or bash the admin here, just stating what I think needs to happen….
Welcome back to all the older members, although I know almost none of you :)
Futility wrote: I know for a fact that there are at least eight new challenges waiting to be released. Actually, I count ten. There's probably more from other people that I don't know about too.
And I've started to form a list of development ideas since they never get done when I suggest them. I've been meaning to bring them to system now that he has plesk access again. I'll do that as soon as I get back from break.
Hackthis59 wrote: ya, its been about a good year or two since ive been around here. and nothing has changed, I was actually surprised.
And I think one of the reasons it hasn't changed is because the admins are getting busy :-(
Nah, Mr_Cheese is a cunt that can't handle having a community. There's no admins that hold longer than a few months (Exept Meltdown ofc).
maug wrote: @ last 2, you know school, work, and IRL stuff is a part of most people's lives…
- If you don't have enough time to be an admin because of "IRL stuff", then don't be one.
- This is not the reason most admins are inactive. Most just plain don't care.
- This is not the reason nothing is happening here. There is 1 semi-active dev.
Let's not make excuses.
Hackthis59 wrote: But that really isnt our decision now is it? And that's bullshit. We're the ones visiting the site, we're the ones promoting it, we're the ones answering questions, we're the ones keeping it alive. And yet we're not allowed to speak up when our most basic wants- hell, needs, even- are not only not met, but completely ignored? There are plenty of people that frequent this little corner of hell that would love to contribute and help it rise again, but they are constantly being shooed away by those that can contribute, but choose not to. Fair?
Futility wrote: [quote]Hackthis59 wrote: But that really isnt our decision now is it? And that's bullshit. We're the ones visiting the site, we're the ones promoting it, we're the ones answering questions, we're the ones keeping it alive. And yet we're not allowed to speak up when our most basic wants- hell, needs, even- are not only not met, but completely ignored? There are plenty of people that frequent this little corner of hell that would love to contribute and help it rise again, but they are constantly being shooed away by those that can contribute, but choose not to. Fair?[/quote]
Of course it's not fair, Cheese isn't fair. But we shouldn't speak more about how bad cheesey is :( - he banned me over 100 times because of it.
It is unfair, life's unfair.
What the admin do is a balence between letting the site run out of control and locking in down completely. A balence is just what it is and some people will always be unhappy with that.
You could always make your own site, I don't say it to undermine your pov, just that, thats what needs to happen, those that are unhappy go off and create thier own site, it's how HBH started. And I'm sure it'll happen over and over.
At first, typically, the balance will be well in favour of out and control => creativity. Eventually that will have to be curbed. To allow the site to mature.
And the sites role in the community shifts from an oppturnity to change the way hacking sites work, to a resource, people say this site is now full of noobs. That's because the way the sites works has changed, and that change is a nessesity to formalise it's posiiton in the community.
Edit: Sorry just realised this was butt load of bs.
DarkMantis wrote: Of course it's not fair, Cheese isn't fair. But we shouldn't speak more about how bad cheesey is :( - he banned me over 100 times because of it. Yeah, that's why he banned you. Couldn't have had anything to do with your actions.
Hackthis59 wrote: And as far as the admins go, i agree that cheesehead doesnt do much around here, and that there should be new admins appointed if the old ones wont be around much. But that really isnt our decision now is it? In all honesty, how long has it been since you've gotten back? And you're already complaining like you've been here all along?
@futility and maug and those others complaining: I agree that a change would be nice, but we've been doing this tango for quite some time. Complaining is nice if you want to relieve some stress, but if you want changes, start acting. I believe it was Ghandi who said "be the change you want to see in the world". In fact that's one of the quotes beneath the banner. Good advice.
The truth is, I see the same people (myself included) complaining over and over about how we disagree with how things are done, but that's all we ever do. We complain. Where has that gotten us? You all complain here about how lazy cheese is, but we're no better. What have we done aside from pointing fingers and waiting for somebody else to fix things?
Rather than complain I suggest brainstorming.
ynori7 wrote: @futility and maug and those others complaining:
Rather than complain I suggest brainstorming.
I wasn't really complaining. But now that you mention it, I think that HBH could do with a bit less clutter. I wouldn't mind going through the code bank, articles, and links and flagging garbage. Someone also might be able to copy the code from the voting on forum threads (thumbs up, thumbs down), and once an article/code/link is voted bad, it's flagged for the mod.
The Links kinda annoy me. There's no link section, for some reason. But there is still a "link to us" and "submit link". I assume it's still around, just not visable.
This is great, everyone coming together and voicing their opinions. Except that it's not. It's really not. There have been so many of these group therapy threads where we all sit down and talk about how angry we are with the admins for not doing a thing and how more things should happen. It should obviously strengthen the point of the threads, that the admins don't care and that Cheese is bad for you whether you're lactose intolerant or not. However, it doesn't. What it does mean however is that you, meaning right about all of you in these threads and outside of them, are the ones who don't do a thing to further the site, not just the admins. Almost all of you complain; don't. If you want to see some change, take action instead. You're not damn powerless, screaming about change is all well and fine, as long as you know what change you're looking for. And if you've got a good idea of change you'd like to implement, then and only then do you start talking about it. Once you're ready to actually do something, that's when your voice really matters; when you're ready to stand up and make some change, no matter how minuscule. If you've got ideas, post them, bug the admins about them, take some action to make them go through. Don't just sit around talking about how we need more stuff. If you're not up to bugging admins, posting ideas or to take on the mantle of responsibility and some form of leadership, then there are plenty of things you can do to make some sort of change. Post a lecture of something in the forum, submit some acceptable code to the code bank, submit an article mabye. Heck, there are actually two places on this site that you can submit articles to, one of them started because someone actually took time to make some change for you and is kept alive for that very reason. But that's no thanks to most of you as only two have actually shown enough interest to contribute something, besides those already working with it. And a point I can't stress enough, when someone takes time out of their lives for the sole purpose of giving you something new, something to do, a contest maybe. Then do not sit around complaining about it. We're a community damn it, someone's finally taking time out of their own lives, just to do something for you and you complain. Have you no shame? I'm usually not one to say this, but in these cases I feel it actually applies: if you can do it better, then do it yourself.
So as a summary, instead of sitting around crying about change in these threads, go and do something instead, or at least try to do something instead if you've got any idea whatsoever. These discussions might be fun, but have no value whatsoever, they won't change an admin's mind or how things work around here as proven by the very discussions themselves.
ynori7 wrote: [quote]DarkMantis wrote: Of course it's not fair, Cheese isn't fair. But we shouldn't speak more about how bad cheesey is :( - he banned me over 100 times because of it. Yeah, that's why he banned you. Couldn't have had anything to do with your actions.[/quote]
Yeah.. that's why he banned me (Most of the times anyway)
COM wrote: What it does mean however is that you, meaning right about all of you in these threads and outside of them, are the ones who don't do a thing to further the site, not just the admins.
Right - so you're telling me the only people that actually keep this community alive are the ones who don't do a thing..
**COM wrote:**Almost all of you complain; don't. If you want to see some change, take action instead. You're not damn powerless, screaming about change is all well and fine, as long as you know what change you're looking for. And if you've got a good idea of change you'd like to implement, then and only then do you start talking about it. Once you're ready to actually do something, that's when your voice really matters; when you're ready to stand up and make some change, no matter how minuscule. If you've got ideas, post them, bug the admins about them, take some action to make them go through. Don't just sit around talking about how we need more stuff. If you're not up to bugging admins, posting ideas or to take on the mantle of responsibility and some form of leadership, then there are plenty of things you can do to make some sort of change. Post a lecture of something in the forum, submit some acceptable code to the code bank, submit an article mabye. Heck, there are actually two places on this site that you can submit articles to, one of them started because someone actually took time to make some change for you and is kept alive for that very reason. But that's no thanks to most of you as only two have actually shown enough interest to contribute something, besides those already working with it. And a point I can't stress enough, when someone takes time out of their lives for the sole purpose of giving you something new, something to do, a contest maybe. Then do not sit around complaining about it. We're a community damn it, someone's finally taking time out of their own lives, just to do something for you and you complain. Have you no shame? I'm usually not one to say this, but in these cases I feel it actually applies: if you can do it better, then do it yourself.
So as a summary, instead of sitting around crying about change in these threads, go and do something instead, or at least try to do something instead if you've got any idea whatsoever. These discussions might be fun, but have no value whatsoever, they won't change an admin's mind or how things work around here as proven by the very discussions themselves. Tell all that to the 10+ challenges waiting to be implemented. To the flagging system for the code bank. I personally know of a challenge submitted, accepted by two admins and made ready to be implemented. Has it been? No. How long ago was this? November 08.
"Become the change you seek in the world."
More moderators, to handle the menial filtering, editing, deleted.. etc. so that admins don't need to waste their time on it. Making lists of things that need to be done isn't going to work - until the things already queued up are out of the way.
[Edit] Fixed quote
x_5631 wrote: Right - so you're telling me the only people that actually keep this community alive are the ones who don't do a thing.. You can keep a dying animal alive without doing anything to help cure it or soothe its pain.
Tell all that to the 10+ challenges waiting to be implemented. You're talking to the guys who made those 10 challenges man. We've been waiting for them to be implemented for, how long has it been now…four months.
More moderators, to handle the menial filtering, editing, deleted.. etc. so that admins don't need to waste their time on it. Making lists of things that need to be done isn't going to work - until the things already queued up are out of the way. There is more that can be done besides waiting for somebody to grant you power. People need to take charge. You can moderate without moderator privileges. You can start competitions without developer powers.
ynori7 wrote: You're talking to the guys who made those 10 challenges man. We've been waiting for them to be implemented for, how long has it been now…four months.
To be honest I was aiming at the people who should be implementing it.
ynori7 wroke: There is more that can be done besides waiting for somebody to grant you power. People need to take charge. You can moderate without moderator privileges. You can start competitions without developer powers. Moderating without being a moderator seems to have gotten people far, doesn't it, I could think of a few people that stuck to trying this, and have left or been banned. Competitions wont fix a community, and to be honest, starting them without dev/mod/admin at all wont get you far I don't think.
x_5631 wrote: Competitions wont fix a community, and to be honest, starting them without dev/mod/admin at all wont get you far I don't think. Neither will complaining. We've been doing that for years and it's gotten us nowhere. So you can either keep bitching to people who don't care or you can try something different. I believe it was Einstein who said "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."
EDIT: and I started a competition without any dev powers. Turned out fairly well I think.
x_5631 wrote: Right - so you're telling me the only people that actually keep this community alive are the ones who don't do a thing..
No, read it again.
As for the rest, ynori pretty much covered it; as he said, you're talking to the guys who made the ten challenges, that includes me. So I'm telling whatever I said to everyone, including the 10+ challenges, those who made them and those who try their best to contribute. I expect them to know exactly what I'm talking about. There's more to contribute than just challenges, as I previously said. Put an idea out there, submit things, try to at least make a dent. And those who've tried, who are trying, they have at least done something, they've at least made a dent. I've never said that active developers aren't needed, but if all you do is cry about it, then whether it's called for or not, you're not helping. If you're going to cry, at least make an effort while you do it and contribute something specific to cry about. If you don't even try and give no incentive to others, then the change will not happen.
MoshBat wrote: [quote]ynori7 wrote: [quote]MoshBat wrote: Not wanting to seem like a little bitch here, but, ehm. [quote]Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.[/quote] Pretty sure I said that.[/quote] Not quite ;)[/quote] So I replaced the colon with "is". Whoopdy-fricken-doo.
ynori7 wrote: We've been doing that for years and it's gotten us nowhere. So you can either keep bitching to people who don't care or you can try something different. Like what? Submitting challenges? - Done that, never implemented. Making suggestions? - Check http://www.hellboundhackers.org/forum/why_can39t_we_report_pms-4-15219_20.html#post_141908 as that seems to be all that happens to any suggestions.
**ynori7 wrote:**and I started a competition without any dev powers. Turned out fairly well I think. What was the reward, was there a dev/admin somewhere for that? Were there any news posts about it to announce the winner, was there a dev/admin somewhere for that?
[Edit]
COM wrote: As for the rest, ynori pretty much covered it; as he said, you're talking to the guys who made the ten challenges, that includes me. So I'm telling whatever I said to everyone, including the 10+ challenges, those who made them and those who try their best to contribute. I expect them to know exactly what I'm talking about. There's more to contribute than just challenges, as I previously said. Put an idea out there, submit things, try to at least make a dent. And those who've tried, who are trying, they have at least done something, they've at least made a dent. I've never said that active developers aren't needed, but if all you do is cry about it, then whether it's called for or not, you're not helping. If you're going to cry, at least make an effort while you do it and contribute something specific to cry about. If you don't even try and give no incentive to others, then the change will not happen. You say that as if this is some great challenge that we all face, when it should be fucking simple if there was some better, or even just more of the same level, administration and development.
Anyhow, yeah, I think I've said enough.. especially considering the fact it will go unread by anyone that would actually take notice. This isn't much of a welcome thread, even though it does say a lot about what he's being welcomed to.
So, welcome back :] I hope you have a good time now you're back, regardless of the fact your welcome back thread got butchered.
x_5631 wrote: Were there any news posts about it to announce the winner, was there a dev/admin somewhere for that? http://www.hellboundhackers.org/451-hbh-python-competition.html
Although I agree with what you're saying, there's no use in saying it anymore. The time has come when words no longer mean anything. We can continue talking about the change we want to see, or we could make it happen. If everyone starts bombarding the admins with finished products, they're bound to start publishing some of it sometime. They're not bad guys (most of them, anyway), they've just become apathetic. Why? Because we've become apathetic. It's time to drop the "we should really do something" act and actually start doing something.
Sure, it's a fact that there's a ton of stuff waiting to get added to the site but how many of you have actually contributed to that list?
x_5631 wrote: Like what? Submitting challenges? - Done that, never implemented. Making suggestions? - Check http://www.hellboundhackers.org/forum/why_can39t_we_report_pms-4-15219_20.html#post_141908 as that seems to be all that happens to any suggestions. Do you notice what all these things have in common? They all involve you trying to get somebody else to do the work.
[quote]**ynori7 wrote:**and I started a competition without any dev powers. Turned out fairly well I think. What was the reward, was there a dev/admin somewhere for that? Were there any news posts about it to announce the winner, was there a dev/admin somewhere for that?[/quote] I did everything except hand out the points at the end. And guess what, it got done. The admins will do things if you make it easy for them.
What is it you're trying to defend here? Are you defending the idea that everything bad that happens here is the admins' fault? Are you defending the idea that we should just sit on our asses whining about how much we hate constantly sitting around whining?
ynori7 wrote: Do you notice what all these things have in common? They all involve you trying to get somebody else to do the work.
No, they all need somebody else to do some work. Which is why I keep saying there needs to be more, or better, admins/devs/mods.
I did everything except hand out the points at the end. And guess what, it got done. The admins will do things if you make it easy for them.
You did everything except hand out the points and make the news post. Hence why I chose those two things, not all the others, to list right tehre in that quote you were kind enough to read carefully.
What is it you're trying to defend here? Are you defending the idea that everything bad that happens here is the admins' fault? Are you defending the idea that we should just sit on our asses whining about how much we hate constantly sitting around whining? I'm trying to defend the fact that people aren't just sitting around whining about things need to be changed, people aren't complaining about things that need to be done without contribution, but that people are doing things, until they hit a brick wall when they realise nobody fucking cares enough to actually put it to use. Again I'll use the example of implementing challenges and taking up on some of the many constructive suggestions.
x_5631 wrote: No, they all need somebody else to do some work. Which is why I keep saying there needs to be more, or better, admins/devs/mods. Yes, yes we do. Wow, I'm glad we've reached that realization. What do we do now? I guess we should just sit here and hope it happens soon. Maybe I'll even twiddle my thumbs.
You did everything except hand out the points and make the news post. Hence why I chose those two things, not all the others, to list right tehre in that quote you were kind enough to read carefully. Korg made the news post. I never asked anybody to. Hmm, I guess my initiative must have rubbed off on somebody. Would you look at that…
I'm trying to defend the fact that people aren't just sitting around whining about things need to be changed, people aren't complaining about things that need to be done without contribution, but that people are doing things, until they hit a brick wall when they realise nobody fucking cares enough to actually put it to use. Again I'll use the example of implementing challenges and taking up on some of the many constructive suggestions. Yeah, you're right. It's hopeless. We should just give up. OR how about this idea: we could try something else. Instead of complaining about how your challenges you made ages ago never got put on the site, you could host them yourself and put a link in a thread and share it that way.
And really, it's only a few people here who actually try to help out. It takes a lot more than that. We need the community to take some action, not just a couple of members.
EDIT:typo
ynori7 wrote: Yes, yes we do. Wow, I'm glad we've reached that realization. What do we do now? I guess we should just sit here and hope it happens soon. Maybe I'll even twiddle my thumbs.
Sure, try it.
Korg made the news post. I never asked anybody to. Hmm, I guess my initiative must have rubbed off on somebody. Would you look at that… and Yet regardless, there was an admin involved. If you'd stop trying to win this "argument" and actually focus on what my point was, rather than treating it offensively, we might have actually gotten somewhere.
Yeah, you're right. It's hopeless. We should just give up. OR how about this idea: we could try something else.
and At which point did I say that? Again, focus on my point instead of trying to seem superior in form of this argument. I'm not trying to mindlessly argue with you, I'm trying to make you actually understand what I'm saying.
Instead of complaining about how your challenges you made ages ago never got put on the site, you could host them yourself and put a link in a thread and share it that way.
Oh my! That's the solution to boost this community! Take the content elsewhere! What would be the point in trying to build on something by building it onto something else? and I did have it hosted elsewhere, until I was told it was soon to be implemented here, so I took it down.
And really, it's only a few people here who actually try to help out. It takes a lot more than that. We need the community to take some action, not just a couple of members.
but what members are going to want to help out if it's being made more difficult for them than it should be just because somebody else cannot be bothered to do what they should be doing?
Let's face it, this has become an argument between me and you.. with little concept of the actual purpose. I suggest we both leave it now.