What is your opinion on the latest invasion on Gaza?
I'm just starting this thread to see if anyone here in this site has any opinion on the Israeli assault on Gaza.
Note that I do not want this to degenerate into a "FUCK ISRAEL" or "FUCK MUSLIMS" type of thread. I intend this to be a topic where people can discuss and voice their opinions on this issue in a proper manner.
My opinion to this is that the recent assault is almost turning into a genocide as while the Israeli side so far has 10 casualties, the Palestinian side has 700 casualties. It also seems that while Israel claims to be hitting Hamas targets, it always seemed to hit schools (with children in it), hospitals and mosques where unarmed and unaware civilians are hit.
The Palestinians are clearly in a worse state then they have been before. as the West has frozen all Hamas assets and blocked aid for the Palestinians, leaving them to fend for themselves.
The Americans too clearly sided with Israel, and made it looked like the Palestinians only have themselves to blame for electing the Hamas into government instead of their preferred choice. What they ignored was the fact that their chosen ally was considered by many to be corrupt and incompetent by the Palestinians themselves.
Well that's my opinion, I would like to read your opinion on this issue.
It's like any other war. People choose sides, then people die. The ones to blame? Can we tell? We live too far away. We aren't there, in the cities, coughing the dust and smoke, being terrorised by bullets. Our media only go so far.
Predictable, sad nevertheless. Watch what will happen though, at the turning point of their era. Things will change, and when they do, we'd better be watching to learn from it.
fuser wrote: I'm just starting this thread to see if anyone here in this site has any opinion on the Israeli assault on Gaza.
Note that I do not want this to degenerate into a "FUCK ISRAEL" or "FUCK MUSLIMS" type of thread. I intend this to be a topic where people can discuss and voice their opinions on this issue in a proper manner.
My opinion to this is that the recent assault is almost turning into a genocide as while the Israeli side so far has 10 casualties, the Palestinian side has 2800 casualties. It also seems that while Israel claims to be hitting Hamas targets, it always seemed to hit schools (with children in it), hospitals and mosques where unarmed and unaware civilians are hit.
The Palestinians are clearly in a worse state then they have been before. as the West has frozen all Hamas assets and blocked aid for the Palestinians, leaving them to fend for themselves.
The Americans too clearly sided with Israel, and made it looked like the Palestinians only have themselves to blame for electing the Hamas into government instead of their preferred choice. What they ignored was the fact that their chosen ally was considered by many to be corrupt and incompetent by the Palestinians themselves.
Well that's my opinion, I would like to read your opinion on this issue.
Yeah, I've noticed the difference in casualties, it's pretty remarkable. But consider this: Hamas can only get weapons big enough to really create an annoyance…Israel is a nuclear power. Obviously, Israel has firepower that would devastate Palestine. So, when they provoke Israel, what do you think is gonna happen. Israel also is a place the size of a deck of cards on a professional football field…they've got a laughable amount of land between countries that want to see them destroyed.
I personally think both sides are at fault, but Israel has taken it WAY to far. I believe the death toll is around 500 or 600, and the UN is stating over 1/4th of that is civilian deaths. I'm American, and I am HATING our stance on this. America just seems like it wants to piss the middle east off even more. The Palestinians are being blown to pieces, and all the U.S. can say about an invasion is "Try to keep the civilian damage to a minimum"? I guess we have to side with our "Lovely" allies of Israel. I've been following the coverage on this since the first bombs were dropped, and although Hamas was firing rockets, the Israeli assault has gotten more and more out of proportion. Where is the UN at to call for a cease fire? Oh yeah, I forgot, they were trying to, but the US stopped it from going through… God, I hate the American Government here lately, and that's coming from an American born to a conservative family. I won't go into a discussion on the American government any farther. I feel that the United States most likely did have a lot to do with 9/11. That's all I have to say about that. ;)
I love how the Israelis try to blow off every bombing of a Mosque or School by saying they were holding caches of weapons there. Seriously, how many rockets can they have? Even if they are stored there, is it really worth it to destroy the places of worship or education for these people, who are already in horrid distress from these attacks? I think this is more of a military tactic to break the enemy's will, rather than actually attacking stocks of weapons. Just another example of what differences in theology will do to people. Religion drives so many people over the edge.
Actually (for those of you who don't know) before the assault the Palestinians was divided into two groups "Hamas" and "Fath" and they were fighting each other over power (who is gonna rule) and thats exactly what Israel wanted .. "Fath" perspective was trying to find a solution for the issue without any war, bullets or suicide missions, on the other hand "Hamas" had a much aggressive approach to this. But now personally i hope that "Hamas" succeed in resisting and all the other arab/foreign countries help to cease fire as soon as possible. And don't get me started on the US part, it was always supporting Israel all the way from the beginning. what did you think the financial crisis was about anyway!
I appreciate ur viewpoint on this issue…..but one thing is that Israel's citizens must stand up against this war as the rulers seem more than willing to go to war…
India also has enmities wid Pakistan…and I think the US clarified its stand when it sent its nuclear submarine fleets against India in the Bangladesh war(The only war to have been started by India)…..but demands for peace by citizens of both countries have lead to a more peaceful situation….
I think that if the citizens of Israel show that they disapprove of this(I hope they do)….then these conflicts can be resolved or at least a compromise can be reached…(another view…I think its wrong that the most powerful country in the world should take sides…It should be impartial to all(Except to That pesky little rodent organization they call Al Queda.)
Moshbat, you don't mind if I use that as a quote in my sig, do you? ;) Anyways, it appears that Israel and Hamas are working on the principles behind a truce. It appears that Israel has already accepted the basics of it, and the article says Hamas is looking positive, but nothing is decided yet: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7815929.stm We will have to see if the fighting actually stops. I personally would have liked to see someone swoop in and wipe Israel off the face of the earth, but meh. :)
Interesting discussion. As a Far-Left extermist, I consider Israel as an imperialistic force trying to oppose it's power where it does not belong. Some small history before you all call me anti semit; The state of Israel was founded shortly after World War two as…'compensation' for the Jewsih casualties. There were some restriuctions though, like the fact that Israel should NOT, NEVER, kick the current inhabitants of the country, the palestinains, away. And that was the first thing they did. You can't blame Hamas for trying to get back the country that was, and still is, theirs…
moshbat wrote: There is fault on both sides. My thoughts are "I wish my fucking Country will keep out of this one, instead of team-tagging with our Nation's biggest fuck buddy". As long as there is Man, there shall be war. As long as there is Woman, there shall be an unpractical solution.
mosh i completely agree with you, and why are we helping them? just because where allies??? f that. its kinda like the saying you learn by doing it yourself, like when im stuck on a video game, i dont have some one else beat it for me i do it my self. or if i get into a fight at school, i dont have some one else fight my fight, i go over and kick the live crap out of the person. thats what where doing, where fighting a fight that isnt ours.
and the quote "As long as there is Man, there shall be war" is true and unfortunate, and will probably be our downfall.
darkpyroSG wrote: mosh i completely agree with you, and why are we helping them? just because where allies??? f that. its kinda like the saying you learn by doing it yourself, like when im stuck on a video game, i dont have some one else beat it for me i do it my self. or if i get into a fight at school, i dont have some one else fight my fight, i go over and kick the live crap out of the person. thats what where doing, where fighting a fight that isnt ours.
You're a fucking moron. That's it. I would've typed a better response if I didn't think you wouldn't get that anyway. Get a clue.
moshbat wrote: As long as there is Man, there shall be war. As long as there is Woman, there shall be an unpractical solution.
moshbat wrote: [quote]brandonman wrote: Moshbat, you don't mind if I use that as a quote in my sig, do you? ;) My God! Of course I don't mind! I am incredibly taken aback that you actually asked! Really, you need not ask to quote me, or even anyone, for that matter. But thanks :)[/quote]
Actually thats one of the famous Albert Einstein quotes .. but I'm sure you have the same mentality as Einstein to come up with that on your own.
well my grandma lives in one of the towns that Hamas is bombing. they get 40 missiles in that one town alone…every day. how would you like to live in a situation where every hour you're running to the shelter, worried maybe this time the missile has your name on it. every day having to call her and check if she's still alive…does it even matter only 10 israelis were killed? the intent to kill is certainly there. do we need to wait till they kill someone before we protect ourselves? Hamas openly states they aim to destroy israel and kill all Jews living within it. they don't want peace, they don't want a solution. they want destruction.
Folk Theory wrote: well my grandma lives in one of the towns that Hamas is bombing. they get 40 missiles in that one town alone…every day. how would you like to live in a situation where every hour you're running to the shelter, worried maybe this time the missile has your name on it. every day having to call her and check if she's still alive…does it even matter only 10 israelis were killed? the intent to kill is certainly there. do we need to wait till they kill someone before we protect ourselves? Hamas openly states they aim to destroy israel and kill all Jews living within it. they don't want peace, they don't want a solution. they want destruction.
Israel kills almost 100 person every day .. most of them are children and women .. they live without electricity, food or water .. they have no where to hide because Israel is bombing everything including mosques and schools 21 hours a day .. Not to mention that Gaza is NOT their land.
Now how many casualties you hear that Israel had 4 or 5 ! .. thats nothing to what they are doing in gaza.
Folk Theory wrote: how would you like to live in a situation where every hour you're running to the shelter how would you like to live in a situation where your whole family is dead and you got no where to hide .. living without home, electricity, food or water ?
personally i would be really HAPPY with the shelter.
Folk Theory wrote: [quote]**ZvirX wrote:**Israel kills almost 100 person every day .. most of them are children and women
you completly lost all credibility right there.[/quote]
Well from the first 4 days of the bombing almost 400 was reported killed and thousands of injures. And obviously you are not really aware whats going on Gaza ,, I'm sure if you had you wouldn't have said that. you didn't even bother to comment on the rest of my post.
Anyway i don't want this thread to be turned in another flame war threads. But war is never the answer.
Folk Theory wrote: then be glad those that thought otherwise saved you from the nazis. what! .. I'm not form wherever you think I'm. my country has gone into war guess with whom .. Israel.
so as long as there is Israel there will be war .. they don't have anywhere to live so they try to steal other countries land .. (its as simple as that).
war is not always the answer but when Israel is a part of the problem its the only answer.
ZvirX wrote: what! .. I'm not form wherever you think I'm. my country has gone into war guess with whom .. Israel.
so as long as there is Israel there will be war .. they don't have anywhere to live so they try to steal other countries land .. (its as simple as that).
war is not always the answer but when Israel is a part of the problem its the only answer.
Do I smell huge bias somewhere in this post, yes, yes indeed.
It's like me and communistis, I hate them and anybody mentioning them in any positive way. Ohh and here comes the surprise, guess by whom my coutry was occupied for very long time? I'm sure you will work out the answer…
It's a shame that history keeps shadowing people's opinions. Everybody taking an anti-Israel opinion is put into the Nazi-box, and all communists are evil russians that occupied eastern Europe or something. People, come on.
Israel, right now, is the agressor. They were given their Holy Land after WW2, but they were not allowed to kick out the current inhabitants, yet they did. And there's nothing anti semitic or Nazi about calling that act of imperialism wrong.
First one calling me a Nazi for saying Israel is wrong here should wonder what my avatar stands for. Have a good day.
clone4 wrote: Do I smell huge bias somewhere in this post, yes, yes indeed.. yes i can see that my post was biased .. i don't see why is that wrong!
clone4 wrote: It's like me and communistis, I hate them and anybody mentioning them in any positive way. Ohh and here comes the surprise, guess by whom my coutry was occupied for very long time? I'm sure you will work out the answer… i hate communists too, if you were referring that i'm one your wrong (i disagree with every single aspect of their thinking). what i said is just common sense .. that everybody already knew except the ignorant.
moshbat wrote: Most people really aren't going to like this… I couldn't give a fuck about the war. There is fault on BOTH sides. Neither, in my opinion, is right. Simply, the one with more guns is "right". Right by lack of opposition, anyway. Let them shoot the shit out of innocent people. Shit happens, and this shit is more pathetic than most. Please don't waste time trying to point out exactly why I am "wrong". There is something that exists among "intelligent" life. Opinion.
I think that opinion is quite childish and not social engaged. I'll talk to you again once you have managed to grab together some ideals instead of indifference…
Wow am i hearing you guys correctly someone was defending the hamas? Havnt they been the ones bombing the Israels for years and years.
Look i think the Israels should have the right to fight back, id be pissed off too if i got bombed all the time. Dont the Hamas support suicide bombing anyways?
To be honest the us have joined in because there pissed at the middle east and want to pretty much kill off most of the problem. You may think that the Hamas isnt a problem, but havnt they been found to cause alot of problems on the gaza strip?
The Israels are surrounded by enemys just like the US is (come on no one really likes the United states). If someone bombed the US you expect them to take it? Hell no dont give them crap for getting pissed off. This might be the sucess to a long lasting problem between both sides. Yes civilians are being killed but what with the hamas women saying the things they are i cant see why ( in some cases ) this is a problem.
Unless you live there and know what really is going on, you cant really tell everyone else what they should and shouldn't think.
It can either sort itself out in a few weeks. Or the US get involved and it lasts a few years. Either way pain, suffering and war is a part of life. Good and bad in everything we do.
Keep up the debate just was throwing in my 2cents on the situation.
dami3n wrote: Wow am i hearing you guys correctly someone was defending the hamas? Havnt they been the ones bombing the Israels for years and years.
Look i think the Israels should have the right to fight back, id be pissed off too if i got bombed all the time. Dont the Hamas support suicide bombing anyways?
Wait, Israel is defending, Palestina is the agressor? Weird… especially since the Palestinains are there for over 1500 years while Israel was only founded 60 years ago… First thing they did was kicking yout the current owners of the country, the Palestinians.
@Mohsbat, I don't say I need to approve your opinion. But having none at all makes it quite useless to post in this topic, don't you think? The topic title is 'What is your opinion about…', not 'Do you actually have an opinion about'.
Nubilosus wrote: [quote]dami3n wrote: Wow am i hearing you guys correctly someone was defending the hamas? Havnt they been the ones bombing the Israels for years and years.
Look i think the Israels should have the right to fight back, id be pissed off too if i got bombed all the time. Dont the Hamas support suicide bombing anyways?
Wait, Israel is defending, Palestina is the agressor? Weird… especially since the Palestinains are there for over 1500 years while Israel was only founded 60 years ago… First thing they did was kicking yout the current owners of the country, the Palestinians.
[/quote]
People are always invading diffrent countries you could even call that migrating now. Thats like kicking half of the non British population out of England. I guess they had to set up camp somewhere. Come on they have a shit load of space :P
Anyways this whole gaza thing crops up every so often in the news and now they just televisionised it more than usual.
dami3n wrote: You would be surprised to the extent people will go to make a point or to follow there way of life.
This war is meaningless, for the bloodshed exceeds the spoils of war. Without meaning, this war … it has nothing to do with a way of living. It's just a way of killing. Of dying.
Dare I say, of idiots.
Religion leads to love and hate, love and hate leads to war, war leads to death, as long as we have death, there will be religiouse people fighting and dying in wars…
I have said it before, and ill say it again, this whole fucked up planet would be a hell of a lot better if people could just let go of the notion of an after live… live is there here and now people, live it up, dont fucking blow yourself and 20 others up for that WHICH DOES NOT EXIST.
Though that said, there are people in this world who believe anyone who does not see their ideals, is evil, and should die, i believe they are the evil ones that should die.
My views.
spyware wrote: Funny you should mention "religiouse" people. Makes me want to throw a punch or two at you.
ROFL.
Religion is the main cause of war, my beliefs are that religion corrupts and clouds the mind, makes a human being a drone, a slave for a purpose. The world would be better if religion was abolished… Give it a few hundred years for the older human mentality to die off.
BTW, you welcome to try and track me down to throw a couple punches, infact if you get as far as finding me, ill let you have a couple before i even fight back… ^^
spyware wrote: I was merely pointing at your 'interesting' spelling. Now that you've expended on your original point, I hate you for your convictions as well. Seems like you're just as brainwashed as most theists.
Ah, misunderstood. And totally missed the typo >.<
How am i brainwashed when i came up with this thought from what i have seen and heard?
Telling a person if he dies for his god, he will be rewarded in the after life, THAT is brainwashing.
I just wish so badly i could live in a world without religion, where people live the one live they have to its fullest, and not kill for a lie.
This is how i always have, and always will feel about religion, however you spell it.
moshbat wrote: [quote]K3174N 420 wrote: [quote]spyware wrote: I was merely pointing at your 'interesting' spelling. Now that you've expended on your original point, I hate you for your convictions as well. Seems like you're just as brainwashed as most theists.
Ah, misunderstood. And totally missed the typo >.<
How am i brainwashed when i came up with this thought from what i have seen and heard?
Telling a person if he dies for his god, he will be rewarded in the after life, THAT is brainwashing.
I just wish so badly i could live in a world without religion, where people live the one live they have to its fullest, and not kill for a lie.
This is how i always have, and always will feel about religion, however you spell it. [/quote] Religion is not a bad thing. In fact, it has brought us here. You see, people will obey the "highest" law more than mere laws set by the government. They fear something that is worse than they could imagine. The common word for this is "Hell". Without this fear, people would run amok, and that would have started a long time before you and I were even thought of. Religion is the most effective method of control I have ever seen! Look what people have been convinced to do! And don't just look at the recent suicide bombings made by some more extreme Muslims. Christianity started the idea of martyrdom. Also, the oldest of the "main" religions is the Jewish religion. Then came Christianity, which thought it was an upgrade, if you will, on Judaism. And then Islam became a more refined version of Christianity. Simply, each hates the other because they believe they are the true religion. That is the problem.[/quote]
Was needed, true, no one could imagine the world if religion never existed, it would be to different, and yes, more than likely for the worse… But i think the time of need for religion is rapidly coming to an end. It is my belief that it's time people woke up. We can stand on 2 feet now.
As for control, I also strongly belief in the death penalty for the more horrific of crimes. 110% positive ID. Standard.
As for the "Christianity started the idea of martyrdom. " bit… News to me, surprising considering suicide is against their belief… I trust you have a reliable source to back that claim?
moshbat wrote: Religion is not a bad thing. In fact, it has brought us here. You see, people will obey the "highest" law more than mere laws set by the government. They fear something that is worse than they could imagine. The common word for this is "Hell". Without this fear, people would run amok, and that would have started a long time before you and I were even thought of. Religion is the most effective method of control I have ever seen! Look what people have been convinced to do! And don't just look at the recent suicide bombings made by some more extreme Muslims. Christianity started the idea of martyrdom. Also, the oldest of the "main" religions is the Jewish religion. Then came Christianity, which thought it was an upgrade, if you will, on Judaism. And then Islam became a more refined version of Christianity. Simply, each hates the other because they believe they are the true religion. That is the problem.
I hoped that this subject won't get into religions, But it did and i feel obliged to correct some flaws in this post…
your talking about the recent suicide missions from Muslims .. and your totally ignoring what the other side is doing… and suiciding is against Muslims beliefs and most of the other religions as far as i know. You also can't just say "suicide bombings made extreme Muslims" you can't hold that against all Muslims because of some individuals.
That being said your also mistaken about that each religion hate the other… Jewish, Christian or Muslim they're all talking about the same thing which is "There is one god". But some of them were "distorted" or "modified" over the year to suite people needs.
I hope you get your facts straight before talking specially when talking about religions because that specific subject can get really messy .. if you know what i mean.
moshbat wrote: My facts are straight. Seriously, the one god thing doesn't mean they don't get on!. ya thats what I'm saying they can get on … but its the greed over land/power that makes them fight each other.
moshbat wrote: I hold nothing against a group for the actions of idiots within that group. Look at HBH! Plenty of idiots, yet I'm still here. I'm glad to hear that .. Oh i mean read that :D
moshbat wrote: And religion is involved in the issue at hand, I should think. It is .. thats why i hoped it won't come into that.
Everyone is obviously going to have a preference, the difference between being constructive and starting a genocide, is understanding when people are never going to agree, would rather die than agree, so let it be at that. Some people would rather die than accept something true or not, that is against everything they've so far lived for. so,.. let them be, does it affect you that much if some people are polar opposite? if it pisses you off ignore them. there will be less war/slander.
Tak11 wrote: Everyone is obviously going to have a preference, the difference between being constructive and starting a genocide, is understanding when people are never going to agree, would rather die than agree, so let it be at that. Some people would rather die than accept something true or not, that is against everything they've so far lived for. so,.. let them be, does it affect you that much if some people are polar opposite? if it pisses you off ignore them. there will be less war/slander.
You have pretty much said it all there, i am all for everyone having there own beliefs and freedom, but for freedom to work, you cannot impose on another's freedom. If someone threatened my freedom, I would fight with nothing to loose, but the people who I hate are the ones who don't care about others freedom, and live selfish and hurtful lives…