My War on Disinformation
I'm a long time member of HBH, and I've now come back.
I'm beginning war on all the bullshit information that exists on HellBoundHackers.org. The fact is that too many people post stolen articles, forum posts full of false information, and generally contribute to a loss of this site's integrity and reputation as a place of quality.
If I post within regard to something you said, it's likely you said something bullshit. I have nothing again you as a person, and no matter how pejorative my words, I promise you it is with purpose I say them.
Quit stealing articles. Quit passing opinion as fact. Quit posting bullshit you don't know and acting as if it's truth.
Thanks.
The same condition exists everywhere in the so-called "challenge-site scene". It's a self perpetuating machine of garbage. They feed off of each other's waste.
You're waging a bigger war then you think.
Essentially every "security community" with members still in high school or younger is exactly the same.
I'm completely aware. The reality is that, at best, 5 people in this whole community have any real talent or knowledge. To make this worse, this likely includes staff on the site. Everyone feigns knowledge in predictable rhetorical patterns.
Moreso, everyone follows the same pattern of development in this field. It starts with a place of "I don't know how to begin" and eventually you go through stages like "Ping of Death," "SubSeven/NetCat master," and "Linux Elitist." It takes a few years before people grow out of this.
Certain words and phrases also point easily to a lack of talent: a discussion of "hats," overuse of the term "social engineering" when you're just breaking someone's legitimate trust or deceiving someone, the word "coding" instead of programming when you lack talent.. There are millions.
I think I'm going to make a logo and give my seal of asinine to all worthy posts.
Tony wrote: I'm completely aware. The reality is that, at best, 5 people in this whole community have any real talent or knowledge. To make this worse, this likely includes staff on the site. Everyone feigns knowledge in predictable rhetorical patterns.
Moreso, everyone follows the same pattern of development in this field. It starts with a place of "I don't know how to begin" and eventually you go through stages like "Ping of Death," "SubSeven/NetCat master," and "Linux Elitist." It takes a few years before people grow out of this.
Certain words and phrases also point easily to a lack of talent: a discussion of "hats," overuse of the term "social engineering" when you're just breaking someone's legitimate trust or deceiving someone, the word "coding" instead of programming when you lack talent.. There are millions.
I think I'm going to make a logo and give my seal of asinine to all worthy posts.
I agree and fully support your attempt to do this, however why are you bitching about using 'coding' instead of 'programming'. I can see a different between 'scripting' and 'coding/programming', but you're aim is to prevent disinfo,stealing of articles, plagarism etc. But it sounds to me like you just wanna bitch. I have no problem with people that wanna think they know more, or think they're skilled, or think whatever they wish. Why are you so concerned with it?
Tony wrote: I'm completely aware. The reality is that, at best, 5 people in this whole community have any real talent or knowledge. To make this worse, this likely includes staff on the site. Everyone feigns knowledge in predictable rhetorical patterns.
You still haven't answered the looming question, why this "community"? You'er not really DOING anything by pointing out people's obvious fallacies (because yes, we DO notice them too).
Moreso, everyone follows the same pattern of development in this field. It starts with a place of "I don't know how to begin" and eventually you go through stages like "Ping of Death," "SubSeven/NetCat master," and "Linux Elitist." It takes a few years before people grow out of this.
Perhaps that's the path you took, however, unless you've spoken with each and every person interested in computer security here, I refuse to believe that is a blanket pattern that can be applied to everyone.
Certain words and phrases also point easily to a lack of talent: a discussion of "hats," overuse of the term "social engineering" when you're just breaking someone's legitimate trust or deceiving someone, the word "coding" instead of programming when you lack talent.. There are millions.
People drop jargon when they want to act smart, yes. People also use jargon when they actually ARE smart. The difference is subtle, and often requires a look at the diction and phrasing around the target passage.
I think I'm going to make a logo and give my seal of asinine to all worthy posts.
Good idea, but you're not going to last long.
I think you'll find that myself and others who stop by here every once in a while are more then capable of analyzing you just as much as you analyze others.
Keep it up.
Your methods of identifying certain groups of people amazes me. It seems like I have deduced the same things as you.
Again, the best of luck. I completely support you and your goal.
@LLOH; If we cannot win this war, we'll just start another, shan't we =].
spyware wrote: Your methods of identifying certain groups of people amazes me. It seems like I have deduced the same things as you.
Again, the best of luck. I completely support you and your goal.
@LLOH; If we cannot win this war, we'll just start another, shan't we =].
We've already won, silly. And we'll keep winning. ;D
You seem to really blow this out of proportion, and in classic troll tactic, do a many-quote post to try and call me out? Very silly. The reality is that if people really do start calling out bullshit and, in place make objective comments with some truth behind them, it really does work.
Blanket statements really do work, actually. It's called statistics. Most people are here to learn on their own. An overwhelming majority, actually. This tends to mean that they are fairly inexperienced themselves. Helping each other is important, but by passing off guesses as fact or opinion as truth, this causes more problems than it solves. As for the progression of people in the field, I'm sorry if my language was unclear. I suppose what I really meant was that people tend to follow a similar progression; that is, at least the people who hang are around and learn here.
You seem to just want to cause conflict yourself, however. And yes, I can be analyzed. How is it relevant? You obviously know nothing about me. You know nothing but what I choose to say and let on, including things that can be deduced by my language.
Your observations about my comments on 'jargon' seem to be a bit misled. We're not talking about real technology jargon, we're talking about over-hyped hacking rhetoric from under informed hacker-wannabes. You make an informed guess: how many members of this community are legitimate hackers worthy of even discussing what type of hat they wear? Estimates are okay.
It's quite alright if you disagree. You seem intelligent enough. However, if you're going to point out flaws with this all, your time would be better spent finding legitimate flaws.
Coding versus programming, again, is just one of those trends I discussed earlier. In a legitimate programming field, both terms are used; however, coding tends to be used by people in the same situation.
Why do I do all of this? I was a member of this community for a long time, starting not too long after the community began. Tell me there's something wrong with trying to steer a community to a higher standard- because in reality, that's what this is about.
slpctrl wrote: Well I wish you guys the best of luck in waging your war against disinfo on the internet =]. I'll continue occupying my time learning, instead of trying to control online communities.
Who's trying to control anything?
Order of control over HBH: Cheese System/Richo/What_A_Legend/only_samurai -cL everyone else.
Like I said, "we" already "won" the "war". (Though, as you can see, this is very metaphorical, and perhaps not even related to what you're thinking.)
lesserlightsofheaven wrote: [quote]slpctrl wrote: Well I wish you guys the best of luck in waging your war against disinfo on the internet =]. I'll continue occupying my time learning, instead of trying to control online communities.
Who's trying to control anything?
Order of control over HBH: Cheese System/Richo/What_A_Legend/only_samurai -cL everyone else.
Like I said, "we" already "won" the "war". (Though, as you can see, this is very metaphorical, and perhaps not even related to what you're thinking.)[/quote]
I'm not trying to call anyone out, nor am I criticizing anyone's ability. I'm simply saying, that your time could probably be occupied better. I mean, if you feel you can change the community for the better, as I stated more power to ya! But, it seems impractical to me to wage a war against disinfo, especially on the internet IMO. And I'm not talking about HBH as a community, I'm talking about all cyber security communities, collectively. There will always be people that want to think they're better than everyone else when they in fact can do next to nothing. This is why I typically stick to forums that strictly deal with certain programming/scripting languages.
Tony wrote: You seem to really blow this out of proportion, and in classic troll tactic, do a many-quote post to try and call me out? Very silly. The reality is that if people really do start calling out bullshit and, in place make objective comments with some truth behind them, it really does work.
I like the quote game. It gets people mad, and then they stumble in their replies. And yes, it is a troll tactic. Analogous to your comment about objective statements, "it really does work".
Blanket statements really do work, actually. It's called statistics.
Oh, really? So because a study tells me that 45.3464% of all people like to eat the shit that pours out of their mouths, I'm supposed to believe that without knowing the DESIGN and PROCESS on which the study was based? You don't know much about statistics.
Most people are here to learn on their own. An overwhelming majority, actually.
You've been gone a while, haven't you? Read through some recent posts, especially the "mentor requests". Good laughs.
You seem to just want to cause conflict yourself, however. And yes, I can be analyzed. How is it relevant? You obviously know nothing about me. You know nothing but what I choose to say and let on, including things that can be deduced by my language.
I want to do nothing but remind you that you are human, and you are prone to error. I've used those exact lines before actually, you remind me of me.
Your observations about my comments on 'jargon' seem to be a bit misled. We're not talking about real technology jargon, we're talking about over-hyped hacking rhetoric from under informed hacker-wannabes. You make an informed guess: how many members of this community are legitimate hackers worthy of even discussing what type of hat they wear? Estimates are okay.
Agreed, and noted.
It's quite alright if you disagree. You seem intelligent enough. However, if you're going to point out flaws with this all, your time would be better spent finding legitimate flaws.
Okay. I'll keep looking.
Why do I do all of this? I was a member of this community for a long time, starting not too long after the community began. Tell me there's something wrong with trying to steer a community to a higher standard- because in reality, that's what this is about.
As people have said, good luck. You'll need it.
@slpctrl: I'm not really agreeing or disagreeing or fighting with anyone either, don't worry. ;D
And yet you're here, and you're obviously interested to comment. If the community isn't important enough to you, that's fine. This isn't really some dramatic situation of control; I'd just rather see some positive change in a community I (mostly) enjoy. Take what you will, but I don't see how people who are intelligent can't contribute to a higher standard on this website.
Just call people on bullshit. Everyone. Just take every single thread on your own and don't make it personal beyond that. Be helpful and objective. Take whatever tact pleases you, but actively work to make the community better. Challenge people to do better by whatever means necessary.
lesserlightsofheaven wrote: @slpctrl: I'm not really agreeing or disagreeing or fighting with anyone either, don't worry. ;D
Neither am I. Arguing/disagreeing with anyone on the internet is more a waste of time than waging war against disinfo on the internet :p:).
Again, good luck. You'll need it. See these warn points, that me and spy have?
We got them doing what you're trying to do.
People don't LIKE being told they're wrong. It's human nature. Members don't LIKE being whined to about every single facet of their post. Admins don't LIKE being told their community is being run incorrectly.
You might very quickly find your cause disliked and crushed by others. Just a fair warning. (pun)
RogueByte wrote: If you were there from nearly the beginning, you must have had some recognition or respect. Why would you dump that? Especially when you want to do something that requires people to respect you or at least know who the fuck you are…
Actually, what I'm doing deals more with objectivity, so no, people don't need to know who I am. Plus, there aren't a whole lot of members around who would know/care who I was; the ones who are can probably guess.
lesserlightsofheaven wrote: Again, good luck. You'll need it. See these warn points, that me and spy have?
We got them doing what you're trying to do.
People don't LIKE being told they're wrong. It's human nature. Members don't LIKE being whined to about every single facet of their post. Admins don't LIKE being told their community is being run incorrectly.
You might very quickly find your cause disliked and crushed by others. Just a fair warning. (pun)
This is what my argument boils down to ultimately. And tony, don't get pissed/defensive when you yourself get criticized, when you're asking all of us to do just that ;).
Tony wrote: You seem to just want to cause conflict yourself, however. And yes, I can be analyzed. How is it relevant? You obviously know nothing about me. You know nothing but what I choose to say and let on, including things that can be deduced by my language.
Tony wrote: The reality is that, at best, 5 people in this whole community have any real talent or knowledge. To make this worse, this likely includes staff on the site. Everyone feigns knowledge in predictable rhetorical patterns.
those two quote contridict each other. it's okay for you to judge an entire community but it's not okay for lloh to judge you?
Tony wrote: The reality is that if people really do start calling out bullshit and, in place make objective comments with some truth behind them, it really does work.
that's only true in an ideal world. the problem is (and you said so yourself) the majority of people on this site dont know much of anything. so if you call out someone's bs it wont really matter becuase most of them dont know bs from truth and those who do can fend for themselves. never underestimate the power of fools and morons in large numbers. in the real world the word of the fool rules becuase the fool is the majority.
I became neither pissed nor needlessly defensive.
And Lesser, god forbid I receive a warning. Perhaps with the correct pressure, the site's administration can realize the necessity of some of this. It seems a little silly to abandon because of a fairly meaningless warning if your tact was truly appropriate.
If a ban is placed for such a tact, would that not be a martyr? A sign that the administration is failing? It becomes then a test of the community as well as the administration. No unnecessary drama here despite the thematic rhetoric.
"This is funny" is a surprisingly common phrase from people who've run out of meaningful comments.
I've yet to see any legitimate contradictions, however.
If you're quite through complaining, however, that'd be fine. You've made your point clear, and I've made mine. I'm fine if you disagree, but waffling isn't making any difference.
Isn't it funny how effective this was already? This is, by a huge margin, the best and most intellectual thread that has been on these forums for a while.
Tony wrote: "This is funny" is a surprisingly common phrase from people who've run out of meaningful comments.
I've yet to see any legitimate contradictions, however.
If you're quite through complaining, however, that'd be fine. You've made your point clear, and I've made mine. I'm fine if you disagree, but waffling isn't making any difference.
Isn't it funny how effective this was already? This is, by a huge margin, the best and most intellectual thread that has been on these forums for a while.
You've proven yourself about as effective as a solar powered flashlight :p
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People Just call you a Faggot if they run out of Meaningful comments..atleast on HBH..
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if you just joined, then how would you know this is the "most intellectual thread that has been on these forums for a while."
And you talk about bullshit..
Are you actually trying to insist that faggot is the only thing said when someone runs out of meaningful comments? There is absolutely nothing to say to that. Did you miss the part where I said I've actually been a member a long period of time?
RogueByte wrote: [quote]Tony wrote: Isn't it funny how effective this was already? This is, by a huge margin, the best and most intellectual thread that has been on these forums for a while.
Effective? It was a waste of space. You plugged some idea people have already heard, and then people argued about it for a while.[/quote]
And yet, look; people actually typing out thoughtful comments and arguments. People discussing things with some semblance of meaning.
But oh, yeah, I forget. It's all going to turn into flaming at some point.
Tony wrote: But oh, yeah, I forget. It's all going to turn into flaming at some point.
When you're annoying the shit out of everyone with how your idealistic community would look, yeah it's gonna turn into giant flame wars and nothing else. You aren't going to bring a revolution, you aren't going to start anything great, you won't be considered a martyr. At least not alone. You're really only being an annoying little shit as far as I can tell. Sad thing is you might be very proficient in the area that HBH deals with. But when everyone hates you, they're not gonna listen to anything you have to say.
Tony wrote: "This is funny" is a surprisingly common phrase from people who've run out of meaningful comments.
Meaningful comments towards what, an endless stream of trolling? I said it was funny because it was funny. I like trolls, and being one myself, I can appreciate the effort that goes into it.
Isn't it funny how effective this was already? This is, by a huge margin, the best and most intellectual thread that has been on these forums for a while.
Speaking of doublethink. xD
Are you actually making that as some kind of argument? Really?
A) You don't know how long I've been gone.
B) You don't know in what capacity I've been gone. A faithful reader who doesn't login, perhaps?
C) You don't know that I haven't gotten back up to date.
Now you guys are really just working to be angry and negative. That is honestly a shame. The premise of what I posted here hasn't change; I'm all for objectiveness and integrity of information. You can disagree with me however you want; however, it's pretty hard to disagree with that premise.
What does it say about this forum that it took at best two pages of remarks to turn into worthless emotional posts? Even the people here who claimed in some capacity to agree with the idea of good, clean information seem to have turned right against it.
RogueByte wrote: This thread is about your ego.
Couldn't have put it any better. Note that the title is: My War on Disinformation
Rather than: An intelligent communal discussion on disinformation to reach a point of reason and understanding.
Note that in the beginning, every single person said that they agreed with your cause.
But, upon further investigation of your method and style of obtaining your goal, each of those people have turned against you, because of how ridiculous you are.
Silly silly.
Please read the OP.
And Lesser, reread my comment about the term "funny" again and maybe you'll click with what I said. There is a difference between a legitimate observation and an argument tactic.
To me it seems like everyone has something to prove here as well. What is it though? Lesser, you turned from legitimate arguments to attempted personal attacks. That is telltale of this entire community in reality.
If you've got a problem with me or this thread, that's a very different thing than disagreeing with a desire for better information. This whole site has two aspects: information, and community. If the information is bad and the community is belligerent and accepting of its flaws, what's here for you to defend? There is a better root in the community; the desire for knowledge is present. The form through which it is coming through by this select group of members, however, is curious. What is it you all want out of this site or community?
In response to your most recent post, Lesser: That is a bit off mark. They claimed they agreed with it; by abandoning the ideal within one thread of arguments where I defend myself against people obviously bent on negativity in addition to legitimate argument, they've proven themselves "silly silly" have they not?
The post is about MY interpretation which I hope would make others consider. See a problem with that? Yes, I do believe in the ideal myself. Hence the 'my.'
Tony wrote: And Lesser, reread my comment about the term "funny" again and maybe you'll click with what I said. There is a difference between a legitimate observation and an argument tactic.
I did, and all I did was laugh a little more because you still don't realize I was speaking LITERALLY because I thought it was FUNNY.
To me it seems like everyone has something to prove here as well.
We don't CARE what you think. You've already talked enough about yourself.
What is it you all want out of this site or community?
I came here to learn, but then I found myself with nothing to learn. Then I came here to teach, but then I found people unwilling to learn. Then I came here to discuss, but then I found people unwilling to talk without whining and ego pumping.
So now, I just come here to laugh. It's awesome.
If there's nothing even worth defending in this community, then why do you want to help it? What do you want out of this community? You're merely bringing out it's bad points, saying you want to make it better but doing nothing to help.
EDIT:
Tony wrote: before declaring that you're only here to mock the ignorance of others..
Mocks you
Just to clear something up; You won't do anything. Sure, you can make some good posts, you can uncover some hidden truth and perhaps you can teach us something. Will hose facts restore this community? Are you really so naïve to think that the endless stream of 'n00bs' will stop flooding because you arrived? A martyr? A hero? This is the internet, and those are just twelve-year-olds on the other side of the cable. The only way to make them "grow" is to talk for a few years, they'll grow older.
The war you are referring to is over, you cannot rebattle the final boss. Time after time countless people proved us right, they are stupid and we have a chance to escape from this form of stupidness.
I hope you escape -in time- as well. Also, it will not do you any good to attack the… pillars of a foundation you want to restore in the first place. I hope you figure out what I mean.
I am truly sorry to bump this post even a little bit. and also sorry in advance if this isn't the best post ever. I sorta haven't slept in a while;)
But I was kind of hoping for the "Scooby-Doo ending" where we could say "It was ___ doing this the whole time" and tony could say "And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren’t for those damn Skids" (ohh shiz yo… we gots "jargon" her)
That being said, there is something called potential. I am not talking about myself. But we all can see what is going to happen here. You will fail, give up, and then tell yourself that it was never really that important or that no one could do it. After that you will probably go back to the last thing you did well enough to get paid for so you can always think "I was the only one who really knew what ‘being the best’ meant, It was the rest of the world that is wrong" No more gain, no more potential.
You had a ton of logical fallacies. Reminds me of politics. bleach!:angry::xx:. (jargon? or just a big word…hmm) Wikipedia that shit.
And back off on the mentor posts. At least those people aren’t afraid of showing a grain of humility - one of the quickest ways to learn. Even if there is a mob of "untalented" people, some of us don't mind that. Being called a skid or a n00b doesn’t mean anything if you plan on learning and can see why people call you that. It gives people time to think about what they want to do in life. And if there is anyone with real potential, they will (magically) find a way to succeed and learn.
(Personal attacks:.) And by the way, making bad stats is one of the few things that actually gets me annoyed. You didn’t pass in that area.
Lesser said: People drop jargon when they want to act smart, yes. People also use jargon when they actually ARE smart. The difference is subtle, and often requires a look at the diction and phrasing around the target passage.
And WTF would your seal of approval look like?
Stop passing opinions as fact and take your own advice. pw3n'd. (jargon)
Sorry for the flame all. other than that, I would have wished you the best of luck tony:)
@Dex: Good points, good stuff. I like your scatterbrained-ness, it's entropic, but it still makes sense.
I think I've got this guy's old handle nailed down, the diction is pretty much dead on.
@Dex haha, nice post. Very well put.
as spyware was getting at, the main problem on this site (or any forum site for that matter) is generally the age group. like wisdom, maturity cannot be taught; it can only come through time and experience. all we can do is try to set a good example and attempt to guide these precious moronic minds towards competance.
and tony, i have to give you some credit. it's not often that someone getting flamed chooses to make his final post and then bow out of the argument. usually someone has to get banned, threatened, or the thread ends up getting locked.
ynori7 wrote: and tony, i have to give you some credit. it's not often that someone getting flamed chooses to make his final post and then bow out of the argument. usually someone has to get banned, threatened, or the thread ends up getting locked.
Though it'd be nice if that final post had to do with the ORIGINAL TOPIC instead of a cheap jab.
Cheese probably didn't lock it because he thought it was hilarious.
Folk Theory wrote: lol everyone here is gay. i laugh alongside Mr. cheese in the ridiculousness of this thread. if you want people to treat you nicely get some real life friends. if you want people to only use the words or jargon that pleases you buy a slave or educate your children.
You focus on the spear.
There's an army.